Parenting Without Pain: A Young Mother’s Journey to Back Health

Welcome to the Back Pain Solutions Podcast – Parenting Without Pain: A Young Mother’s Journey to Back Health

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In this episode, we delve into the case study of a 25-year-old mother dealing with chronic lower back pain brought on by the daily challenges of lifting her young children. Ben James and Jacob Steyn discuss the physical and emotional toll of postpartum recovery, including weakened abdominal muscles, compromised spinal stability, and the persistent strain placed on the lower back by repetitive parenting tasks.

With a focus on addressing the root causes of chronic back pain, the hosts share practical, evidence-based strategies to prevent and manage discomfort.

Learn how to protect your spine with proper lifting mechanics, use a step to safely lift children from a cot, and support your lower back during tasks like bathing or feeding. They also highlight the critical role of diaphragmatic breathing in reactivating core muscles, reducing strain, and creating lasting spinal stability.

This episode is packed with actionable tips for parents navigating the challenges of chronic back pain, offering insights into proactive self-care, spinal hygiene, and movement mindfulness. Whether you’re a new parent or simply seeking ways to improve your lower back health, this episode provides the tools and knowledge to help you move forward with confidence and strength.

Action Items

• Practice diaphragmatic breathing for a few minutes daily to reactivate the core.
• Ensure proper posture and support when feeding/holding the baby, such as using a supportive chair or pillows.
• Use a step or platform to make it easier to lift the baby in and out of the cot, avoiding excessive bending of the low back.
• Maintain good spine alignment and utilize hip hinge mechanics when bathing the baby or lifting the car seat, to minimize low back strain.

You can watch on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/7c8cpnp-pbQ

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Episode Transcript

Ben James

0:30

Welcome back to the back pain solutions podcast. This is our first episode of 2025 it’s me, Ben James, and as always, my co host, Jacob. Stay in afternoon. Jacob, how are you? I’m good. Thank you. Benny, good. And today, we’re going to talk about a case study of a 25 year old female patient. This is a mother, and so the challenges of looking after small children whilst looking after your lower back. So this patient is a, is a symptomatic patient. They’ve been experiencing some back pain. They’ve been having some challenges with back pain for a little while. They’ve got young children clearly lifting the children doing daily activities is is aggravating the problem. There’s a there’s awareness of that. So we felt that it would be a useful case study to discuss, because not just for a symptomatic female patient Mother, this is relevant for any parent, whether whether a mother or father, whether you’ve got back pain or not, because whilst in this case, they’re symptomatic and we’re trying to reduce pain and and build up recovery. Of course, this is a relevant subject in terms of, in terms of risk for for lower back injury, we see a lot of patients that have developed back pain after having children, and that might be increased risk with a with a female patient with the mother having given birth, weak abs, a lack of attention of those abs, lack of follow up. We’ve discussed this before on previous podcasts, but certainly when we’re lifting children out of a car, in and out of the car, that can be a challenge. So we thought we’d discuss this patient specifically, but definitely there’s broader application for for other parents here that is relevant to listening to and to apply on a daily basis to help prevent as much as it is to help to treat and and resolve a low back issue. So Jacob, thoughts, where do we start with this one? Because it’s, no doubt, a challenge. You’ve seen patients to post post partum. I’ve seen them. We’ve seen fathers as well, and we’ve had to discuss children. And it’s not something that people just really, I guess, like with a lot of things, give any any real attention to or focus on when it comes to presenting with back pain. And it’s not something they would just necessarily assume could be a challenge here,

Jacob Steyn

3:05

yeah, I think Ben, you know, like some things just overcome us. These are, these are things we we don’t often prepare for. And it seems to be the case when we are young adults. You know, we have children. We’re also working. We’ve got a lot of things going on. We’re preparing. I yourself as well. I experienced that as well not too long ago. There could be a lot more in the way of prep, preparing yourself, preparing your environment, as well as preparing your your body physically. So it’s extremely strenuous, and it doesn’t stop for a long time, taking care of a child, you know, whether it’s getting up at night with feeding or changing nappies, or, like you said, taking them out of out of the car, but also putting them in a cot, quite often, quite low, with a high, high wall. So the question really is, I think, and we could talk about this a lot, there’s a lot to discuss, but we’re going to keep it relatively short if we think of the of the main things, and I think it’s really how, maybe, how? How can we prepare, you know, as young parents, in between the busyness of everything and how can we best take care of our environment? You know, whether it’s the sleeping situation or I can also share things that we did for myself, especially for my wife, with breastfeeding that she did, as it’s something you do at night and to make sure that that we didn’t break down, right? But we’re going to discuss this, this case study of the young mother as well.

Ben James

4:58

Yes, and and in. Case, the the patient in question, if I’m right, didn’t have leg pain. This is very much focused on the back pain, not that it necessarily really matters in the, you know, in the context of of general advice here. But did this patient have pain before children, or was it just after children?

Jacob Steyn

5:21

Yeah. So I think no pain before, pain after, like we have in a lot of cases when we’ve when we see mothers who gave birth, you know, there’s a there’s a big change in their bodies, and it’s really about, you know, when I see a mother who’s given birth, they’ve got a young kid, maybe not at that moment, but as soon as they get a chance a few months along the line, we want to start cleaning up injuries that they’ve they’ve gotten or accumulated stresses that happened during the giving birth or just after. So we want to get our body strong again. Right? I think that that’s a big focus. And I think quite often that doesn’t happen. It gets kind of put on the side, because they’ve got to take care of somebody, they’ve got to get back to work. But I think really, if you if we can put some focus on getting them strong again, teaching them how to move properly. Look at some spinal hygiene, where the exercises or things they can do to make sure that we keep the pressure down in the back, creating some healing capacity, increased tolerance, they can have a lot more joy with their body

Ben James

6:35

and not to mention, as well, the mental benefits. You know, because giving attention to yourself, specifically here, as a, as a, as a new mom, and looking after yourself and putting yourself first a little bit, there shouldn’t be anything to feel selfish about in that regard, this is important, because, let’s face it, the healthier and happier you are, the better you are to be able to look after the the child. So this is also about, you know, putting your putting some time in for you as well, specifically as a mother. And there’s no doubt, you know, when we’re we’re talking about this case specifically. And this still applies to people prior to pregnancy. It still applies to people, to fathers prior to having children and and post having children. There’s no doubt one of the challenges we’ve talked about this before postpartum is is, is the impact it has on the core muscles, because babies growing abs are stretching to accommodate and then postpartum weather via natural birth or cesarean, those muscles are clearly going to be weak and that that can affect the ability to brace and stabilize the back so therefore, clearly there’s a risk here of the onset of back pain postpartum.

Jacob Steyn

7:56

Yeah, yeah, and yeah, that’s it. Really. It’s the ability to create that intra abdominal pressure, in other words, creating that pressure in the abdomen in the front that quite often goes lost after giving birth. And so there we well, what happens to young mothers is they they develop this strong communication between the brain and the brain and the low back muscles, because those are the only muscles really keeping them upright as they lose the front of their core. And so when they’ve given birth afterwards, that’s that program remains, and that needs to slowly get reset to using more abdominal function. In other words, like you mentioned the bracing effect. And I want to mention, you know, it doesn’t mean that a mother, after giving birth within the first few months have to learn how to brace with a lot of power. It’s simply being able to use the diaphragm to create a little bit of pressure in the front so the back muscles aren’t doing everything right. It’s Yes, it’s getting back to proper biomechanics in order to relieve pressure in the spine, especially when we’re picking things up or moving things or twisting,

Ben James

9:09

yes, yeah, yeah. So I think that that’d be a relevant, great kind of action application point to just drill down on as a simple thing for people to take away from the podcast today, because what we’re not saying is, you need to baby’s born, and suddenly you’re going back to the gym, you know, two days later. What we’re saying here is is it’s a little bit of time and attention to yourself, but that can be done in short bursts at home. And so Dare I say there shouldn’t be the excuse of of a lack of time and having been a, having been a young parent myself, but, you know, I understand those challenges. But let’s just talk about a little bit of a maybe a breathing exercise, or a focus of people that they can maybe visualize when listening to this from a from an activation of of diaphragm and breathing that. Can be a, you know, even even a day or two after birth, could be very easily done. That will will help in terms of that reactivation, re engagement of the core, even if that’s slow progressive, you know, a part of a slow progressive plan. What the, what are the things that they could be considering here

Jacob Steyn

10:22

in the beginning, we want to stay away from creating too much pressure in the abdominal cavity, in other words, in your abdomen in the front. So the idea that we’re going to brace with a lot of power is something that will become something we do much later. So in the beginning, we want to see that someone’s able to breathe in their belly. So we want to see proper diaphragmatic activation. And so what will happen, quite often is we get higher breathing during pregnancy, and also after that, we have chest breathing, and we lose this ability to use the diaphragm to create a little bit of pressure in the abdomen, and simple diaphragmatic breathing, in other words, breathing in your belly is already a first step in activating the diaphragm, and will help you along the way. Later, we need a little bit more activation. We may need some lateral abdominal walls. So we’re thinking side blanking things like this to activate and complete the whole, the complete function of the abdominal cavity. But in the beginning, it would mainly be maybe lying in your back, breathing in your belly. You can use fingers to squeeze yourself on the side and feel what happens with your tummy, whether there’s a little bit of an increase of pressure, very gentle, very light, once a day, at least once a day, few minutes, not more.

Ben James

11:56

Yeah. So we’re focusing on that, that breath kind of coming right down into the abdomen and allowing that abdomen to to expand a little bit, versus this upper chest, short, shallow breathing, almost. Yeah, okay, exactly. So that’s something that you know, when you get up breathe moment when the baby went but you know, let’s say you’ve just got a newborn baby’s asleep. You’ve got that, that that little bit of time, if you’re not having a nap, asleep yourself, you know, lying on your back, taking some time to relax, just just focus and think about that, breathing a little bit, just to start to get that re engagement and connection with those muscles, brain muscle connection, just so that we’re starting to to be aware of of that area, because we definitely want to focus on reconditioning that that anterior abdominal wall, as Jacob says that the lower back muscles take so much of the toll as pregnancy progresses, that that those abdominal muscles, the anterior abdominal wall, really starts to to get to get weak. So we want to, we want to look at reactivation there. And Jacob in terms of in terms of other things, particularly key things, because exercise, and addition of exercises and core strength, core endurance, we definitely want to consider that, and there’s definitely things that could be done pretty early on. But I think what’s probably more helpful and maybe more relevant with this case in mind, is more the awareness of back position when doing those simple daily activities, we talk about this a lot, the fundamental movement patterns, the daily spine hygiene and the exercise, those key areas are still clearly relevant here. But there’s a few differences to consider with respect to, or not necessarily, differences to consider, but maybe to over emphasize in this case, when it comes to carrying a baby, lifting a baby out the cot, etc, that will cumulatively impact a low back, whether you’re suffering now or whether there’s a risk of suffering. If you’re not aware of this, any thoughts on that we you know clearly the neutral spine and the bracing, I guess, a key, a key elements here as always. But in terms of the challenges with this patient in mind, was there anything that you identified and discussed that was a provocative that was something that was clearly an aggravating factor, particularly,

Jacob Steyn

14:26

I think, especially for young mothers, when they with a bottle feeding or or breastfeeding, it’s, you know, They spend a lot of time lying or sitting. As I remember in our case, in the beginning, it was mostly sitting, and later on, as the as the baby is able to drink lying, instead of being a little bit more upright, then the mother can also lie down, and that’s really relaxed for for the back or the neck or the shoulder. Older of a mother, but so I think there’s a lot of time being sedentary for us for a very good reason, and I think you need to choose your chair or your your the way in which you recline. You know, you have to choose that carefully for your body type, with your short or long you know, or whatever you feel, is good, but you need to make sure that it’s not going to be something where you slouch right, so you don’t want to slouch to your low back, in a chair that doesn’t give any support to your low back, or a chair that’s ending up, you know, should prop yourself up, put something in your neck so you can relax your head. Because quite often you you know, you see that these mothers have, they develop problems in their neck, so they’ve got to hold a neck still, or a certain position where they breastfeed or bottle feed. So make sure that you find a good chair, right, or, if you’re going to do it on the bed, make sure that the pillows that you stack up is really taking care of your body, something that you do numerous times a day and regularly.

Ben James

16:09

Yes, and this is something that if you’re, if you’re not suffering from back, back pain, is something that you might, you might disregard and and it’s some for obvious reasons, because let’s face it, there’s, there’s a, there’s a big sleep deprivation that we all have to face. And fortunately, with with having, uh, young children, babies. But if you are suffering, but even if you’re not really give consideration for that, because if you are being woken multiple times, which inevitably will be in the first few weeks at least, and you’re having to feed, which inevitably will will be the case. Then it is very easy to just say, right, I’m going to sit in bed and I’m going to breastfeed there. Now, of course, when you’re sat in a bed, up against the headrest, your your legs generally, are going to be straight out in front of you. That is always going to be a challenging position for a low back which we talk about this a lot with sitting on a on a sofa or a couch, for anybody suffering from back pain, these are challenging chairs and and furniture to sit on, because inevitably, your your legs are straight, and unless you’ve got fantastic flexibility in your hamstrings, you’re often drawn into a more flexed, stooped, slouched posture that can put a lot of pressure on lower backs, in terms of disc structures, that can be a huge problem for lower back pain, whether that’s creating it or keeping you in an aggravated, unhappy position. So whilst it is difficult, you’ve got to be really mindful of trying to be more upright and neutral in your back when you are doing those in those feeding scenarios. And clearly, when you’re tired, sometimes you just want to get that baby fed and get back to sleep. But cumulatively, this can have an impact. So it might be to the feel like it’s more of a challenge and and harder in the early stages, but, but you will reap the benefit further down the line, if you can just be a little bit more mindful of that, and if that involves, in some instance, sitting at the edge of the bed. So maybe you don’t have the back support, but you’re least not trying to just sit up right against the headrest of your bed and keep your legs straight, then that might just be the the lesser of two evils than sitting in a in a specific chair, shall we say. But it’s certainly something to be mindful of, because, as always, a lot of the time it’s cumulative, cumulative impact on a back, on a structure in the low back, that causes these issues, or keeps you sensitized, keeps you irritated. So we have to have to be mindful of that. And that is that comes into the category of daily spine hygiene. So you might be sitting in an office chair every day, or you might be sitting trying to feed your child regularly every day. Either way, we’ve got to be mindful of that posture.

Jacob Steyn

18:59

And I want to say, Ben, you have to recognize when you’re trading on ice. So if we’re in a situation that’s already very vulnerable, you’re one of your goals is to stay away from the tipping point. Yes, right. So we’re in a vulnerable situation where we’ve got lower tolerance, we’re exposed to numerous factors every day that’s going to play with that level of tolerance. And if we go beyond that zero, we go over that tipping point, that’s when we get into trouble. We want to stay away from that. Yeah, you know, and that’s what people often don’t realize. They’re like, I didn’t do anything. I’ve done the same thing, but it’s the same thing cumulatively that ended up us going over that tipping point, and then the body reacted, and what we then have is a young mother who’s, you know, faced with a lot of challenges and having pain, and there’s no way out, because you got to keep doing what you do. Doing, and we want to avoid that, right? It becomes much more difficult to turn that back, to get them back on track where they don’t have pain because of all these obstacles they have every day, yes, and so. And that’s also a big reason why we have this podcast. So we can, we can get people to go, okay, heads up, you need to pay attention when you’re in the situation. Let’s take make a make a couple of changes that’s going to make sure that we keep the tolerance higher than we’d like in a normal situation where we’re exposed to all these things, and so we have better, better ability to cope with it.

Ben James

20:40

Yes, yeah. And I think that’s the that would be a key kind of take home at the end of this episode, is that, in that, in that specific scenario of this, this individual here, and for those that can relate, a lot of the the capacity is taken up with being a new mother potentially, or it’s a second child maybe, and you’ve got all that to deal with. Let’s try and at least remove those aggravating factors and keep good daily spine hygiene. Don’t worry so much about all the exercises and the other things that can come to build abdominal endurance and conditioning, etc, etc, which will all be helpful. But let’s focus on those simple things that that can have a cumulative benefit, significant cumulative benefit, by just repeated daily and just by being a little bit more mindful of it and and I would add to that, the lifting when it comes to putting a baby in and out of a car seat, for example, because a lot of people now will have these car seats that we can remove from the car, which is great, but then that car seats being put on a on a floor in the house, and then you’re trying to get the baby down to put them in that seat. Clearly, if you’re trying to get down to that seat to put the baby in there, in the car seat, to then take it out, you can often be bending through the low back. And that’s a decent weight bending through the low back that you’re going to be doing potentially quite a few times on a daily basis. So we’ve got to start to try and be a little bit more mindful of that movement. And so in the same way that we’re trying to reduce that that flexion by poor sitting. Let’s also try and be mindful of keeping that baby close to us, lunging down to the floor, so that you’re keeping back in a straighter position to then get a baby in the chair and then lifting off the ground, and similarly, when we’re trying to get that car seat into the car, being a little bit mindful of creating that little bit of tension through the amps, trying at least not to bend through the low back so much, trying to remain upright as much as possible, so that again, cumulatively, these little things are not compromising back health and not leading to kind of continued sensitization irritation that can either keep her back irritated or lead to a back problem, because we certainly don’t want to be experiencing a first incidence of of low back pain following that that birth, because that then again, leads to a poor experience, which we just we just don’t want. So we’ve got to be more mindful of the cumulative effects of poor movement on a on a daily basis, and also that that’s the same in the first few days, few weeks. No doubt they’re probably not going to be in a in a cot, so getting them in and out of a cot is less of a challenge in the short, short term, but again, definitely this is something Jacob in my experience, that I’ve seen quite a lot, that is often a provocative or potentially provocative activity, because unless that that the side of that cot is almost below the level of the hip, it’s hard to pivot over the hips to Get the baby in and out of the cot. Have you faced this? Have you, you know, have you had any, any, I guess, solutions for this? And then I can, you know, I was

Jacob Steyn

24:11

just thinking about, I was just thinking about the cod Ben, because it’s such an, such a big deal. So what we did was, I got the cod fund from Ikea, and it had two settings for the height of the actual mattress, so you could have it really low for when they’re big and they stand up and it’s safe, they can’t climb out or fall out, and you’ve got the higher level for when they’re younger, and they only lie, they can’t stand up. So what I did was I drilled extra holes before I put it together, so we had more options. So in the very beginning, I put it even higher. So a few. Inches higher. So it’d be even, even less, less of a Ben forward for my wife to pick to pick them up. Yes. And then as they got little bigger, I gradually worked the thing down until I had to have it low. And so in that way, we avoided unnecessarily having to go, you know, to pick them up from so low, from that low, if it wasn’t necessary,

Ben James

25:27

and reaching the arms in as well. So you, you’re, you’ve got that challenge of trying to get them out from a low down position, and with your arms out, which creates a huge amount of potential pressure and low, absolutely through the low back. So I’ve had, in instances, conversations with patients where I’ve had them use a step almost and as always, we want, I’m not talking about a little step that there’s a risk of falling off, because that creates other challenges, but having enough of a step or platform that has just raised the height of the individual, so that when they are that little bit bigger and the cot, as in the mattress, is lower, now we can get it over the cot quite effectively. So you’re almost your body’s almost very effectively over a good amount of the cot. So you can quite easily lift and pivot through the hips. Now that still requires a good amount of core strength and awareness of of bracing those shoulders down, locking those shoulders down. Chest muscles switched on, lats in the upper back switched on, so that we’re really creating that stiffness throughout the back. But it doesn’t mean that I will have to bend through the low back, because as soon as you’re soon as that that top of the side of the cot is above the level of the hips. Then if you’re trying to reach in, you’re having to bend through the low back. So we’ve got to be mindful of trying to get that height up. Now also, you know, when, when children get that little bit older, and depending on the age of the child, when they’re in and out or or out of a car, you know, they’ll reach a certain age when they can kind of understand that when you go to lift them, they’ll give a little jump. So when my my daughter loved her cop. She was very comfortable in it. So when she got to a certain age, she’d stand up in the morning, I’d go in and and I could communicate with her to jump up to daddy, and as she jumped, that momentum would allow me to pick her out without bending and compromising my back as much putting as much pressure through my low back. So these are just little things to consider and be mindful of. But the key aim here is don’t repetitively be bending through that lower back. And as always, we’re not being fearful of that movement for for certain scenarios, but it’s the repetition of that movement, and particularly when we’re putting a decent amount of load through the back, as in lifting a child and they do get heavy, we’ve got to be mindful of how we adapt so that we can reduce that compromise and and reduce that risk.

Jacob Steyn

27:58

It’s a good one, and it almost sounds counterintuitive to place a step in front of the cot, which makes you taller and higher, yes, and then reaching down, but it makes so much sense, because if your pelvis is lower than the edge of the cot, you’re gonna have to round your back in order to get over the cot exactly, whereas exactly, if you’re a bit higher, you’re maybe even more likely to bend your knees a little bit, which is going to give you more benefit of picking something up. Like as we know, if you pick something up from the floor, you bend your knees a little bit and bending through your hips, but that’s much more comfortable and much you’ve got much more of an advantage picking up something heavier than just having your knees straight. So yeah, I like that. Now we didn’t do that. That’s a very good one. Ben,

Ben James

28:50

yeah. And of course, there are some cuts as well that the side can drop down right and perfect. So now we can, we can drop the side down, and we don’t have any of those challenges. But and you could, you don’t need to, necessarily have to bend over at all. But there aren’t, there aren’t that many around versus fixed ones, if you like. So it is, it is definitely something that, as you know, as as things develop, and the baby does transition into the car, you got to be mindful of. And the same with, with with, with the bath, you know, because a bath is another one. You know, one of the things that you could consider, of course, is bathing in the bath a little bit with the child, if you really needed to, to reduce that compromise. But otherwise, you still have that same challenge of bending over the over the bath. So you’ve got to try and not arch that back over the over the bath, because, unless they’re in in the bath for a very, very brief moment, that’s going to involve arching that back and holding and fixating that position for a period while you’re trying to, while you’re trying to bathe a child. So if you’re gonna, if. You’re going to be bathing a baby, then, of course, you can use a separate bath that’s a standalone, much smaller item, of course, which means that now you could kneel on the floor and very easily do that work. But as soon as they start to get into the bath, we’ve got to have that same challenge as we just discussed with the cop that bending and arching over the bath consistently repetitively will be a problem, so you’ve got to try and stand up, keep the back straight, and pivot over that hip to do that work, and then come back out, kneel down, and then you could talk to your child and let them play in the water, play with their toys without compromising your back, but as if you’re cleaning them and doing that piece of work. Then again, you’ve got to be trying to employ the movement of your hips and the strength and stability of the hips, versus compromising the low back, because again, cumulatively, that will have an impact. And we’ve just got to address that. We’ve got to be mindful of that. And so Jacob, in this case, in in point, no doubt you discussed these kind of things. How was the response of this patient? Was it? Was it a pretty easy solution? Was it? Was it pretty protracted in their in their rehabilitation? How was, what was the what was the outcome and, and where are things at the moment,

Jacob Steyn

31:19

not not easy, but gradually better, because we’re managing a situation, as I mentioned, it has many obstacles. There’s there’s being back at work, waking up at night, first child. So you know, we, we tend to do more than what is necessary. Yeah, also has bigger effect on us. We’re more affected by things. You know, making sure, hoping and being assured that everything’s okay with your first child is definitely taking a bigger toll than your second one. And, yeah, so definitely much better. We’ve got the the the strategies in place to make sure that she’s lowering pressure in her back doing certain things that previously was really a disaster, and so she can at least see the light. Knows that, you know, it’s temporary. She’s she’s able to manage. She still has a little bit of pain, but really under control, and I that will definitely resolve in my experience, once she gets given more of an opportunity. And as the child gets a little bit bigger and she recovers even further.

Ben James

32:42

Yeah, but I’m guessing that, no doubt, when she first came to see you, some of these simple things that she could do and she needed to do, as as everybody does that’s had a low back issue, she wasn’t necessarily aware of them. I guess it was very much, what can you do for me?

Jacob Steyn

33:03

Absolutely, absolutely. It was more. It was more like, you know, the typical approach, typical, but quite often the approach of a patient is, how can you make me better? But what she realized is that it’s within her own hands, and it’s what she does 24 hours of the day has a lot more impact than what I might do in a very short space of a treatment, yes, but she’s very grateful for that, because she’s now empowered. She’s got the strategy, she knows it works. And, yeah, and

Ben James

33:37

I think that’s a great way place to finish the you know, ultimately, this is about empowering people to look after their own back health, because once you know what you need to know, to reduce daily irritation, stop picking the scab, improve daily spine hygiene and start building good, effective core endurance, then you’ll feel like you could manage your own back health, and you could do whatever it is that you want to do. Because let’s face it, patients that come to us ultimately aren’t just trying to get out of pain. They’re wanting to get back to doing something that they love, and that’s ultimately what we’re what we’re all about. So I think the take home here is, you know, for for any new parents out there where you’re suffering low back pain, there are simple things you can do that don’t take an inordinate amount of efforts in those in those early stages. Breathing is a good one. Just starting to tap back into good, deep breathing, abdominal breathing. Start to get a bit of an awareness about those abdominal muscles, so that you start to to use them again, start to get them reactivated, but be really mindful of daily repetitive movements that could compromise your low back and most often that is going to be bending through the back, bending and twisting repetitively that just keeps irritating a low back issue, or is often the cause. Effect of an issue. So if you can just manage those few things, like it baby in and out of the car, in and out of a car, seat, bath, etc, then you will definitely, definitely help your low back health. But as always, if you’ve got any specific questions, reach out info@smartstrong.co.uk we’d be happy to help. We’ve got a program, of course, that takes you through all the stages to rehabilitate a back if you’re suffering, if you’re facing low back challenges and low back pain, that’s what we’re here to help with, empowering you to get back to the activities you love. So Jacob, thanks very much, and thanks everyone for Listening. We’ll be back again soon for another episode.