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Omega 3 Benefits & Omega 3 Supplements: What Are The Health Benefits Of Omega 3

In this episode we introduce, and discuss, some of the benefits of omega-3 fats. We discuss some of the health benefits of omega-3 fats and discuss the physiological issues that arise from a poor balance of omega-3 versus omega-6 fats. We highlight the competition that is faced between omega-3 and omega-6 fats which demonstrates why increasing omega-3 fats in the diet is not the only strategy to consider. Finally, we discuss fish oils which have become increasingly popular in the last ten years, but that people don’t understand that not all fish oils are created equal.

Omega 3 Benefits & Omega 3 Supplements: What Are The Health Benefits Of Omega 3

Welcome to the Back Pain Solutions Podcast – Omega 3 Benefits & Omega 3 Supplements: What Are The Health
Benefits Of Omega 3

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Episode Introduction

For anyone that is in any way health conscious they will have heard of the benefits of omega-3 fats. There is increasing research demonstrating the health benefits of omega-3 fats, including the reduction of inflammation.  As most diseases have an inflammatory component and given that new physiological data demonstrates their essential role in the human body, it would seem prudent to increase our consumption of omega-3 fats in the diet. However, the lesser known fact is that the consumption of omega-6 fats is also an important factor and getting the right ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fats is as important. Omega-6 has almost the opposite effect to omega-3 fats, promoting inflammation and contributing to many of the modern diseases we see today. Unfortunately, omega-6 fats are commonplace in the modern diet being found in nearly ALL processed food, as well as restaurant cooked meals. 

In this episode we introduce, and discuss, some of the benefits of omega-3 fats. We discuss some of the health benefits of omega-3 fats and discuss the physiological issues that arise from a poor balance of omega-3 versus omega-6 fats. We highlight the competition that is faced between omega-3 and omega-6 fats which demonstrates why increasing omega-3 fats in the diet is not the only strategy to consider. Finally, we discuss fish oils which have become increasingly popular in the last ten years, but that people don’t understand that not all fish oils are created equal. There are numerous products on the market, some of which are very popular, but which are produced with poor quality ingredients which may actually create the issues that we’re trying to avoid! 

Some of the things you’ll discover…

  • Why not just omega-3 levels are important but the ratio of omega-3 fats to omega-6 in the diet
  • The impact of omega-3 and omega-6 fats on inflammatory mediators 
  • Why you might be surprised by the omega-3 to omega-6 ratios in your own body despite the healthy diet you may feel you follow
  • Why you might want to reconsider some of the common foods that are often consumed as part of a Western diet
  • Why fish oil in capsules may have a negative impact on your health and not the positive response you might expect
  • Why consuming fish oil in liquid format may be a better option for supplementing omega-3 in your diet

Episode Highlights

The health benefits of omega-3 fats are far reaching and the evidence to support their benefits is increasingly compelling. From heart disease to arthritis and many other chronic inflammatory diseases, omega-3 will remain a focal element of a nutritional approach to better health. However, don’t assume that because you consume a good quantity of omega-3 each week that this offers you the health benefits you’re looking for unless you take into consideration the levels of omega-6 fats that you also consume on a weekly basis. The ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fats is out of proportion for many of us and this needs to be addressed. There are now a number of companies that offer simple blood tests to allow you to assess this easily, whilst supplying the quality of fish oil needed to help make a difference. 

Episode Transcription

Intro 0:00
When we’re young, we move with freedom and confidence with a great resilience to injury. But somewhere along the line we develop poor habits and become more vulnerable to back pain, back pain solutions features evidence based and practical advice to help you take back control of your health and get back to the activities you love. This is your guide to better back health through movement. So join us as we demystify some of the commonly held beliefs about back pain and build your confidence to a stronger back the smartway.

Ben James 0:28
Okay, welcome back to the back pain solutions podcast Everybody with me, Ben James. And as always my co host, Jacob stain morning, Jacob rimonabant. So today we’re talking omega three fatty acids, specifically, omega three, and we’re talking about the impact that can have on your health on inflammation, and maybe a little bit how it relates to back pain, specifically, but a little bit more of a focus on general health overall health in this episode. But before we start, as always, head on over to the website, www dot smart strong dot code at UK take advantage of our free ebook, to start taking back control of your back health in the next seven days, some really good info and videos to help support you on your journey to back pain recovery. So Jacob omega three oils, we’ve we’ve been talking about this together, I know that you’ve been taking omega three for a while I’ve started taking a new one you introduced me to and took a blood test as well just to look at the ratios of omega three to omega six and been reading up on the subject a little bit myself as well. And it’s quite fascinating, quite interesting how it relates to chronic inflammation and some of the diseases that we are seeing that are becoming just so much more common than they were in our ancestors. And that’s largely down to dietary changes. But the impact is, is quite far reaching it would seem

Jacob Steyn 2:02
Yes Ben like you say we’ve both on the omega three-six ratio tests. And what was your result? Can you remember?

Ben James 2:13
Yeah, my result was it was somewhere I was quite staggered, actually. Because I would say that my diet is is pretty good. I mean, it’s not, it’s it’s not being as as optimal as it could be, you know, with with certain things creeping in I, I mentioned to you, I was always wanted, when I was studying that I’d have a chocolate bar in a, in a morning as a break, it was always It was kind of more of a psychological habit thing than anything. So there were little things that that weren’t perfect, but I would say compared to the average, never really eat processed foods in terms of ready meals, any of that stuff, I would generally say that a cook with healthy oils, like olive oil, I’m using far more butter for cooking now than then than any vegetable oils never use any of those. So I felt that my my ratio would be pretty good. And actually it was it was something like 23 to one, omega omega three. And and when we look back in time, our ancestors kind of hunter gatherer, if you like, time of of life, as it were, it was kind of more one to one. And when you look at the impact of omega 6 in terms of chronic inflammation or inflammatory responses within the body, you can understand why so many proportion of the population are having some issues because if my diet was I thought pretty good, and I’m not eating a lot of those processed foods, and my ratio was was at that level, then there’s a problem. Isn’t it?

Jacob Steyn 3:54
Just you were still eating fish as well?

Ben James 3:57
Yeah. Lena Yeah, correct. Yeah, fish. So on a on a weekly basis card would be would be pretty much standard for me as at one meal as we’d see bass. So yeah. And macro as well for lunches, not so regularly. But, but certainly pretty frequently, I would say on a monthly basis. And I guess a lot of the other foods that i thought you know that they’re really going to be beneficial things like avocado things which are which are healthy, you’ve got to remember that some of those still have omega six in so it’s not it’s not absolutely easy and clear exactly how we should be necessarily for the individual changing changing diets but they we can introduce some key areas to focus on as part of the podcast today just to give a bit of direction because it is it is difficult when you when you’re starting out on this subject to really know where where to focus your attention on when it comes to diet, but but maybe the officials is is something specifically that would be beneficial. That’s certainly an area that I’ve introduced to, to up those levels omega three personally, because I think you, Jacob, have seen the benefit of doing that yourself. Because your ratio now is is much, much closer to the one to one not quite one to one but, but not a million miles away at this point.

Jacob Steyn 5:25
Yeah. And I think you’ve you said there, I just want to reiterate that, it’s, I think, largely to the up to the amount of omega sixes that we get in so, you know, I think that’s what the hunter gatherer societies in the past are. So people who live in a very rural area, very much in nature, what they don’t do is get all of these omega six fats in their diet. So I think even if they don’t get as much omega three isn’t, because of this really limited amount of omega sixes, they have a much better ratio. And so that’s much better for their overall health and inflammatory response, and all the things we’re going to discuss. But my initial test was ratio, omega three to six was one to 4.6. And I would eat fish, not super regularly, like maybe twice a week, and I wasn’t taking official supplements. So but what I do is I don’t, I really, I don’t eat grain. And so I really limit my, my omega six intake. And so it was surprising to see that it was actually that low and my wife, she did, we did the test at the same time, roughly and we were about the same. So that was interesting as well.

Ben James 6:43
Yeah, that is interesting, particularly that you’ve you kind of eat the same thing. So the diets pretty consistent. So I think and just to, I guess, on a very basic level, why is omega three and omega six ratio important? Well, from a physiological point of view, there’s a competition there between omega six and omega three in terms of enzyme pathways and things and, and so if you’re in too much omega six vs omega three, then just come look at it that omega six is winning out, and that’s more inflammatory, that’s pro inflammatory, that that causes or issues, whereas omega three, neutral, and therefore helps reduce inflammation. So at a basic level, that is why the ratio is as important as just increasing your consumption of omega three.

Jacob Steyn 7:33
Yeah, and that’s exactly that, you know, it’s about the pro inflammatory cytokines and the anti inflammatory cytokines. And we need the Omega six, they’re essential, it’s very important. So in the beginning of an inflammatory response, we need that part of the immune system to take care of the pro inflammatory cytokines, get the swelling there, get the healing process going, but then we need the anti inflammatory cytokines. And that’s up to apart partly up to the omega three ratio, or at least the omega threes being present, to stop that process and get us out of the inflammatory response and move on to the the end phases of the healing process.

Ben James 8:15
Yeah, and I think that’s a good point, we often talk about anti inflammatories and reducing inflammation and all those those things, but actually, we’ve got to, we’ve got to always remember that inflammation is beneficial. At certain points, it’s, it’s avoiding the chronic inflammation, this is the big problem. It’s the background, kind of sub symptom, sometimes inflammation that’s causing the, the, the big problems across the population. So you might not know that you’ve got some kind of lower levels of chronic inflammation now, but that’s, that’s a key area, I think, is a focus. So remember that inflammation from an acute injury point of view, and, and repair is important. And like you say, Jacob, therefore, omega six does play a role, but it’s more than long term, subclinical and features that ultimately become a problem over the longer term when we’re looking at chronic inflammation. So I think that’s an important distinction just to make there. But we’re not saying that omega six is all bad. But we’ve just got to get the balance right. And not use a Jacob, a lot of it is is down to the grains, those kind of foods that that we would assume to be pretty standard, pretty standard in the Western diet, people would assume that they’re actually pretty healthy, pretty favorable. porridge in the morning, out in the morning, that kind of thing. And so, so there’s some key areas, some quick quick wins, I guess, in terms of getting these.

Jacob Steyn 9:45
They’re being sold to us as being an oilfield open. I mean, every ad when it comes to cereals, and to bread and grain and whole grain and, you know, it’s this is great, you should take it that’s a lot of fiber. It’s good for your digestive system.

Ben James 10:00
And also there’s an element of, you know, with the way that we lead our lives and the quick rushing around. And so many people are so busy. The problem is that the cereals are pretty, pretty easy, throw it in a bowl, put a bit of milk on, and off you go. And, and it’s quick. And that’s the other area that people is beneficial for people, rather than taking a bit of a step back, taking a bit of time out of the week to prepare meals for a morning and things that you can just pick about the fridge. But they’re, they’re ready. They’re much better for you.

Jacob Steyn 10:31
Yeah, and similarly with, but sandwiches, you know, something slapped together take with you that’s. So that’s an important point, it’s become more an aspect of filling our stomachs with food, instead of getting in what we need to function properly and to feel good, and to carry the amount of stress that we’re experiencing, in a favorable way. And I think this is just an aspect of it, you know, fixing the omega three, six ratio, making sure that our inflammatory responses is normalized. Because when we look at the immune system, we don’t want to, like we often hear when we see products advertised, we don’t want to boost the immune system, we want to normalize the immune system, we want to normalize the immune response. So we don’t end up in what you just mentioned, that chronic inflammatory state, but that we move in, repair tissue and move out. And I think there’s, for many reasons, I don’t know so much about also a very similar effect on the brain and emotions. And if the body is working properly, we’ll be less prone to, to experience stress in a certain way. So stress barrier will be better. And that’s one of the things that I noticed when I was taking the slot or taking a high dose official to to correct my omega three-six ratio, even though I wasn’t too bad. For the first test. within three weeks, I noticed that my communicative skills and my my stress barrier was altered in a positive way it was it was better with my you know, because I speak to patients every day. So.

Ben James 12:14
Yeah, and I think, you know, that’s a, that’s a great point, I think, you know, this, we’re when we talk chronic inflammation, you know, when you look at now, increasingly, the research and the evidence out there when we’re focusing on on omega three, and again, not just omega three intake, but but the ratio between omega three and omega 60. The impact on so many diseases is, is becoming more and more apparent, we’re not just talking chronic inflammation, and pain, but we’re talking cardiovascular disease, diabetes, metabolic syndrome, and certain psychological disorders and problems. So the the impact of, of considering this, and not just as part of a back pain, recovery program, and optimal health and, and trying to avoid or control that chronic inflammation, but overall health benefits are, are staggering. And so it’s got to be an increasing focus. And I’m sure, you know, in time, we’ve talked about this before that nutrition will become a bigger focus in terms of preventative medicine, as well as treating conditions, because we’re just seeing more and more evidence that it’s helping a lot of people. So it’s, it’s definitely an interesting area. And in terms of Jacob, where where to start, because a lot of people my grandparents, for example, always talked about cod liver oil, and taking these capsules of oil. And actually, is that the right way to go? Is it as simple as just going into a health food store and picking up some some some fish oils in the form of capsules?

Jacob Steyn 13:55
Yeah, I wish it was that simple, then? No, it’s not there’s a few things you have to look at. and omega three or fish oil supplements is huge market. It’s the most researched supplement on the market. I don’t know if it’s the most sold supplement, but it certainly is very, very big. So you have all these different products and you can get them in a you can get them for very cheap to do very expensive, but there’s a few things you have to look at. And, you know, just to start off with if you if you get fish oil in the supplement in a capsule supplement, then, you know, putting that oil in a capsule already means that it’s going through a heating process. So there’s a good chance that the oil is altered oxidizers becomes useless. And in some cases, if the oxidation value because of the oil before they put in a capsule not being of good quality, it’s already oxidized for a great deal and the oxidation value will go up so high that actually becomes toxic and this is All this, it’s possible to buy this poor quality capsuled. Visual, it’s just, it’s just a fact. So there’s a few things you need to consider. And I think the first one is, what is the oxidation value of the oil? So preferably, we want to get the oil in the bottle. And we want to know the we want the company to play complete open cards with things like you know, when was it caught out? What kind of fish it is? The actual EPA and d h a value, how much of this of the omega three fat is in there? And the oxidation level, you know, is that the oxidation before the processing? Or is it after? because quite often they’ll say, Oh, this is the oxidation value, and that’s before they put it in the capsule.

Ben James 15:52
Yeah, so that’s that that’s a problem, then when we’re looking at getting supplementation alongside dietary changes, then if capsules can, what you’re saying there in capsules could almost have a negative effect. So we’re trying to do something and be proactive, but actually, it’s, it’s proven less than beneficial.

Jacob Steyn 16:12
Yeah. And and the other thing is that quite often, you’ll see a very high EPA and d h a number in capsule visual. And so you only need one capsule or two capsules a day. And then you actually get a very small amount of oil in those capsules, because there’s very little oil in a capsule, compared to when you have a a bottle of oil and you pour it into a little company take five or 10 or 20 milliliters a day. What they do is then they they through a certification, it’s a method where they make more EPA and tha in a chemical way in the lab. So the increased the EPA and d h a, and with a synthetic method. So then you have a concentrated fish oil, you have a very high amount of EPA; DHA in these capsules, and then the problem becomes that we don’t, we don’t absorb it as well as the natural as the natural, just pure pressed fish oil.

Ben James 17:11
Yeah, because the EPA and the in the DHA are important elements of this omega three, that they’re key. And that that’s an area that if you’re listening and you’re more kind of vegetarian vegan focus, there’s often a thought that the body can convert what’s in the vegetables to the EPA, DHA but actually, we do that very, very poorly. So that’s a consideration. And what you’re saying here, Jacob is that the EPA and DHA tried to be creased in capsules, which you would think is a positive, but actually the concentration, therefore, is becoming a problem, because now we can’t absorb it effectively.

Jacob Steyn 17:48
Yes, because of this synthetic way of making or increasing the number of EPA; DHA in the oil, instead of it being just a very good quality high EPA; DHA fish oilwe were being sold a fish oil capsule, which they say that Oh, that’s all you need, because it meets the recommended daily dose. But in fact, you’re not absorbing it well, because it’s not actually natural anymore.

Ben James 18:15
Okay, got it. So what should people do, then? What should people look out? For? What if you’re going in to a health food store? If you’re looking at fish or fish capsules? omega three oils, capsules? What, what should we be looking for? Is it a case of void or capsules? In your opinion, I think from from my personal opinion, taking a fish oil in liquid format, it makes more sense to me from an natural consumption point of view anyway.

Jacob Steyn 18:43
As far as I’m aware of, for what I’ve looked at, seen and spoken to the people of the product that I use, and I use for my patients, I would go for a bottled fish oil are not kept not in capsule form. And you know that I would look for the MSC Mark, it’s an approved, sustainable fishing title that you have to you know, if you’re concerned about the environment, you have to see if that makes sure that that’s on your label, and the company that’s selling official actually has achieved this. So that we you know, so they don’t just fish any fish off the bottom of the ocean and destroying the ocean. So usually then what they do with this MSC mark is they they will keep a count of the fish in the area where they where they actually fish. So they’re not depleting the fish. And so that’s that’s something that’s important. Another thing that you have to find out is what sort of processing are they using? You know, are they open about it? So are they removing heavy metals? Do they press the fish very soon after being court or is actually staying in nets. And you know, they will pass and then they will hold in the nets, and then they’ll get the fish out. And then they’ll process the fish, and then they get the fish oil, and that’ll stay in barrels for a long time before they sell it to specific companies, you know. So those are important things.

Ben James 20:18
A lot of factors they’re involved in, they’re in the process. And in terms of the, the, the parts of the fish that are that are used important is that, is that an important element?

Jacob Steyn 20:30
Absolutely. So there’s more omega three, EPA and DHA in the, say, the fish bones, the head, the organs, and the skin, then in the actual meat of the fish. So what you see with a lot of fish oils, for example, caught in southern hemisphere around South America, they catch small fish, mackerel, and other types of fish, which they use to then press the whole fish. So your EPA; DHA value is lower, because the meat of the fish is included when they produce the fish oil. But if we move towards cod liver oil, for example, then only the liver is being squeezed, pressed for the visual, which means that you get a lot much higher value EPA and DHA and some fish oils. The fish oil that we use, for example is where they they’ll squeeze the organs and the head and the rest of the fish after they’ve removed the fillit. And the meat of the fish. And that and that’s good, because you know, then instead of throwing this what they call bio mass overboard, after they’ve removed the the meat of the fish, they’re actually now using it to make the fish oil.

Ben James 21:50
Yeah, so from a kind of an environmental sustainability, all of that kind of good stuff. It’s, it’s a far better process all round, and you’re getting a better quality all at the end of it as well. So it’s kind of a yes. Okay. And so these oils, are you aware of any that have been sold in you kind of standard health food store at the moment? Or is that an unknown for you? Because I haven’t come across? And from what I can see any any real quality orders in the in the standard stores at present, but I haven’t particularly been looking based on the based on where I source it from most recently. So what are your thoughts on that? Is it is it a watch out for people and and where do you go if if not there?

Jacob Steyn 22:37
I don’t want to name a brand specifically? Sure. The only thing that I would like to say is you know that the fish oil that that we use. Now use for patients, it’s a great product, because you can actually scan the bottle and you can see when it has been caught. There’s a camera on board that shows the process of actually catching the fish. It’s being squeezed within the first five hours of being caught without without the presence of oxygen. So it has the highest or the lowest totok total oxidation value in the world, which is four to six. And I think these are clues if you can email speak to the company that you’re thinking of investing or paying, because quite often it’s quite expensive for your fish oil, you know, then you can you can ask about these things. But what I do get a lot of I get when I have vegans or vegetarians or people who are looking for an alternative because they think it’s too expensive that I want to invest as much then they’ll email me a picture of a specific product, you know, and they’ll say What about this? What about that and usually, I’ll give my criticism I’ll just say look, especially when it’s and oil that’s made of an algae. The problem there is that quite often because it’s very difficult to to produce a good omega three especially with the right ratio of EPA and DHA from growing algae so that’s the main thing you got to make sure that you get enough EPA; DHA from your algae fish oil supplement. And so what happens is the amount of EPA; DHA in these capsules, these algae omega three capsules is quite low. And so you’ll have to take a lot of capsules to make up for the amount you’ll get from a well dosaged fish oil. And so in the end that might working out more expensive.

Ben James 24:40
Yes, yeah, fair point. So it actually, you know, it’s the the investment may seem high for a real quality official, but actually, ultimately the outcome of of taking that official and the benefits you get at the end of it when you compare with with other options is actually ultimately economic. So it’s going to that overall cost benefit ratio as well, we’ve got to look at as part. So don’t just assume that because you’ve, you’re doing something, it’s going to be beneficial, especially if you’re just taking the cheapest option option, because clearly, that’s not necessarily going to yield the results that you’re after.

Jacob Steyn 25:16
Exactly. And the the important thing, we spoke a little bit about the research in the beginning, you know, the very, very interesting thing about the omega three fish oils, especially when it comes to the research is that it’s very dose dependent. So a lot of the old studies were done with a low dosage, and then they didn’t see real benefits will change. But what they’re doing now is, especially with Alzheimers, and Parkinson’s and heart disease, they use very high dosages of omega three, and only incredibly high but high enough. So it can have a real effect. And then they have great results. And that’s the very, that’s the probably the most important thing you have to know about your visual, besides of being a good product, you need to get enough of it. So we can get you back to that good ratio. Ideally, omega three to six, a ratio of one to three or below. And then we start seeing real change, you know.

Ben James 26:16
Yeah. And I think you back to the evidence and the research. And you kind of alluded to the fact that there that the higher doses, that a lot of the older studies, or certainly some of the studies didn’t actually take into consideration omega six, and therefore, if that’s not controlled, or at least quantified as part of the research, then that’s going to influence the the outcome and the the evidence that we that we see. But increasingly now, like we said, at the beginning of the episode, the the impact of omega three on so many areas of health is becoming more and more apparent. So we’re talking cardiovascular diseases, we say autoimmune disorders, outsiders, all those inflammatory conditions, and as well, you know, losing weight and your ability to lose weight. So if it’s not something that you’ve already considered, then definitely go away and have a look at particularly focusing on on fischels. Have a look at the the options out there to introduce that into the diet, we could talk a lot about the different foods and the consumption of foods. But there are so many areas to consider. And so many options to try and limit and options to try and introduce. Clearly oily finches is one quick win. But I think introducing an omega three fish or into the diet will be a great first start to help with the chintzy side of getting more of these levels into the diet into the body. And no doubt. If you’re suffering from chronic discomfort, chronic pain, then introducing omega three into the diet is going to be an option to consider as part of your overall rehabilitation strategy. Like we said in a previous episode on on as when the time to diagnose a condition is so long, why wouldn’t you look at the other options to try and contribute to recovery or certainly disease control in that instance. And the same can be said specifically with omega three. So take a look at the information out there. Do your research, don’t be afraid to ask the companies that you’re looking to purchase a product from a series of questions around the omega three and the benefits and the sustainability of it because all those things are important when you’re looking to to pay for supplements like this. But it’s important to get it right. And not just introduce something think you’re being proactive, when actually the effects from what we’ve said today could be adverse or certainly not as optimal as we would like. So a lot of information that could be covered a lot of studies that could be discussed a lot of detail that could be discussed around the physiology, biochemistry of this area, which is beyond the realm of this kind of introductory episode, but we really felt that it would be beneficial just to talk about this subject, talk about the benefits that we’re starting to see from introducing it ourselves. And from what you’re saying, Jacob, you’re advising a lot of patients now and this is part of your treatment strategy for helping your patients in the clinic as well?

Jacob Steyn 29:24
Absolutely. It’s interesting, I’ve got a number of people already on the official for a while now and I generally get from almost everyone very good and positive feedback. And sometimes you know, the most interesting things you know, better focus or for the first time I can see better in a few years or I sleep better my energy is better. And I tend to especially prescribe it to people who are chronically fatigued or Someone who’s got krones or, you know, bowel problems, autoimmune problems. And yeah, so I mean, I’m very enthusiastic about the product. And I’ll certainly keep taking it as part of my diet. And yeah.

Ben James 30:18
So there you have it guys, it’s it’s becoming part of Jacobs, own personal health strategy but also as part of his treatment strategy for patients. And as I said previously, why wouldn’t you consider it as part of your rehabilitation strategy or overall health? Because this is really got to be the focus? I think we’re not just talking, manage pain, manage back pain, specifically, we’re looking at how can we optimize your health? How can we help you get better, be better, feel better. And omega three is clearly one area of focus for everybody to consider, particularly, as we say, the impact it can have on so many diseases and chronic inflammatory problems that we’re starting to see more and more frequently in society today. We live in more stressful lives. We live in busy lives. We’ve got to look after ourselves as part of that journey as well. So go and have a look, go and have a read. Thanks again for listening. And as always, we’ll catch you again on the next show.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai