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Why Sleep is a Skill and How To Improve It With Mollie McGlocklin

In this episode we talk about the importance of sleep with Mollie McGlocklin. Mollie is the creator of Sleep Is A Skill, a company that optimizes how people sleep through a unique blend of technology, accountability, and behavioral change. Mollie’s obsession with sleep came after her own experiences when her lifelong poor sleep habits progressed to a challenging bout of insomnia. With a background in psychology & human behavior, she went deep down the rabbit hole herself to solve her sleep disturbances.

Why Sleep is a Skill and How To Improve It With Mollie McGlocklin

Welcome to the Back Pain Solutions Podcast – Why Sleep is a Skill and How To Improve It with Mollie McGlocklin

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Episode Introduction

Insomnia is a sleep disorder in which people have trouble sleeping. Experiences may vary from struggling to fall to sleep to difficulty in staying asleep as long as is desired. A little google research reveals that the word insomnia has a monthly search of over 1.5 million demonstrating that this is a common issue. Given that insomnia is often followed by day time sleepiness, irritability, low energy and depressed mood it is clearly a problem! Further research demonstrates that the cumulative long-term effects of sleep loss and sleep disorders have been associated with a wide range of deleterious health consequences. From diabetes to obesity and from depression to stroke the case can be confidently made that sleep loss and sleep disorders have profound and widespread effects on human health. 

In this episode we talk about the importance of sleep with Mollie McGlocklin. Mollie is the creator of Sleep Is A Skill, a company that optimizes how people sleep through a unique blend of technology, accountability, and behavioral change. Mollie’s obsession with sleep came after her own experiences when her lifelong poor sleep habits progressed to a challenging bout of insomnia. With a background in psychology & human behavior, she went deep down the rabbit hole herself to solve her sleep disturbances. She became fascinated with chronobiology and its practical applications to restore a state of homeostasis to sleep. For the past three years, she’s traveled the world testing sleep quality in different environments across the globe. Knowing the difference between a life with sleep and without; she’s dedicated to sharing the forgotten skill set of sleep. 

Some of the things you’ll discover…

  • How the body pulls for homeostasis, it wants us to sleep but often we’re the ones that get in the way of it!
  • Just how lonely insomnia can be and the physiological responses that people can experience as a result of it
  • The science of time, chronobiology, and how this can influence your sleep potential
  • Just why exposure to light throughout each day is so important to your sleep health because of the full spectrum of light we’re exposed to
  • How our thoughts can increase the temperature in our brain and the influence can have on our sleep
  • The importance of consistency when it comes to improving your sleep
  • The influence of hormones on our body and the impact they have on our sleep
  • That the now common blue and green light immitted from many modern light bulbs suppresses melatonin which impacts sleep
  • Why re-thinking your use of sunglasses, baseball caps and even suntan cream can be beneficial
  • Understanding the influence of thought timing and the impact this can have on your sleep
  • Why you may be waking up tired despite thinking you’ve slept well throughout the night

Episode Highlights

If you want to start to improve your sleep routine, then start by getting more sun exposure daily. You need to prioritize periodic breaks throughout the day to get sun exposure, whether you’re working from home or from the office! Exposure to natural light exposes us to full spectrum light which is important to our health. Evidence shows that those that are admitted to hospital and have a room with windows recover more quickly than those that do not so the importance of light exposure cannot be underestimated. Clearly there are geographical considerations to think about particularly in those regions that experience long periods of light or darkness during different times of the year. Here it is important to set a routine to get the light exposure needed and where necessary, although not ideal, may be consider light boxes to support your exposure.

Episode Transcription

Intro 0:00
When we’re young, we move with freedom and confidence with a great resilience to injury. But somewhere along the line we develop poor habits and become more vulnerable to back pain. Back Pain solutions features evidence based and practical advice to help you take back control of your health and get back to the activities you love. This is your guide to better back health through movement. So join us as we demystify some of the commonly held beliefs about back pain and build your confidence to a stronger back the smart way.

Ben James 0:28
So welcome back to the back pain solutions podcast Everybody with me, Ben James. And as always my co host Jacob stain and today we’re talking about the importance of sleep and recovery, and overall health and the importance of sleep. In overall health with our special guest, Molly McLaughlin. Molly is a creator of sleep is a skill which is a company that optimizes how people sleep through a unique blend of technology accountability and behavioral change. Molly’s obsession with sleep came after her own experiences when her lifelong poor sleep habits progressed to a challenging bout of insomnia. One of the lowest and scariest moments was experiencing a panic attack in the fabulous Colosseum in Rome in the middle of a tour group. Now, if you’ve been to the Colosseum, it’s an expensive place, no doubt that added xiety Well, why, in almost three days, and that particular tipping point came on the heels of months of chronic sleep deprivation, she felt embarrassed and ashamed, but most of all terrified that it would always be that way. She didn’t know what to do or where to turn, every doctor’s conversation or Google Search ended in some sort of pill or supplement. And she felt like there was no clear path available to calm down her physical anxiety without pill long enough to make sleep normal again. While with a background in psychology and human behavior, she went down the rabbit hole herself to solve a sleep disturbances. She became fascinated with chronobiology, and its practical applications to restore a state of homeostasis to sleep. For the past three years she’s traveled will testing sleep quality in different environments across the globe, knowing the difference between life with sleep and without, she’s dedicated to sharing that forgotten skill of sleep. So what is chronobiology? Why does so many of us struggle with sleep? And why is it even important? And where do you begin? If you’re struggling with sleep? Well, we’ll find out as we welcome on to the show, Molly McLaughlin, Molly. Hello.

Mollie McGlocklin 2:25
Hello, thank you so much for having me. I’m so happy to be here.

Ben James 2:28
Well, thanks for coming on. Appreciate your time. And you said just chatting before you’re in. You’re in Nevada, but in that, from the reading you’ve been traveling around a little bit is is that? How long has that been? And and how does that affect sleep? Or you use a pronoun that? You can sleep anyway?

Mollie McGlocklin 2:46
Ah, great question. So number one, my boyfriend and I have been traveling for over three years now. And, and then, essentially, we’ve been traveling internationally, it definitely does impact your sleep. And it’s very cool to watch. Since I have so many trackers that are tracking my sleep, I get to see kind of a cool almost diary of my life, as it is told by my sleep results and my health results and all of that. So it certainly does make a difference the place that we’re in, as it relates to them, we’ll get into that as to the why but a number of factors go into that. But namely, light exposure where you are geographically, humidity levels, you know, certainly the immediate environment that you’re in, whether it’s a hotel Airbnb, but there’s a lot of cool things that we can do to make a difference with that. And I’m certainly not immune, I just came back from traveling just on the east coast in both New York and Maine, and stayed in this little cabin in Maine, and I thought I was going to have amazing sleep because there was no you know, no cell service, no Wi Fi. And I there was moments of that, but I was also there’s different temperatures stuff and, you know, meeting with family and all kinds of things kind of came into play, and basically wasn’t quite as great as I expected it to be. And so it’s still what’s amazing is now having so many tools to pull from, to then either help restore that if it’s not quite where you’d want it to be. And I pretty high standards for my sleep at this point. So it was it was great to come back to you know, get settled and reboot that. But absolutely, there’s so much that we can train to make a difference no matter where we’re at. geographically.

Ben James 4:35
Got it. Okay. And I mean, this is a fascinating subject for me sleep because again, I mentioned in the intro, I’d had my own experiences of of insomnia and just to give you some background I when I was training, background as a chiropractor, pretty intense course a lot of information, etc, etc. And it was at the end of I think the third year clinic entrance and I just had one particular bad night’s sleep and I never had experienced problems before. But I kind of woke up and I was like, Well, if I can’t, if I can’t sleep, well, I can’t revise, if I can’t revise, I fail my exams. And then I just didn’t sleep. And it was a three month at least three months of terrible, terrible sleep. I remember being on my lounge floor, on my knees, banging the bag in the floor birthing, but it was so frustrating. This natural natural thing was was just completely, had escaped me. And and actually, I did go to the doctor for a little bit of help. And they said, Yeah, take these, take these pills. And I think it was diazepam, muscle relaxant. And I thought, well, we’ll give it a go, got me off to sleep. But you know, I could wait 10 minutes later. And within a few days, I threw them in the bin. I said, Never again, and I kind of just accepted it. And in time, things things settle. But even now, I was saying to Jake, before, you know, there’s almost a memory that has a subconscious there that if I have a bad episode, or there’s something going on in my mind, then I can have periods of bad sleep, but at least I know I can sleep again. sense is there? Is there a subconscious component? Is there a memory component to it? Do you think and? And what are your thoughts on that?

Mollie McGlocklin 6:16
Oh, absolutely. Well, one I feel for you, and so relatable. Certainly, I think many people often experience some sort of period where their sleep isn’t quite as, you know, great as they might have come accustomed to or something that they’re used to. And then for some of us also that experience of true kind of insomnia, and then for others really chronic, long lasting insomnia. So there’s a spectrum, but often all of us can relate in some way, shape or form to, you know, kind of sleepless night and the frustration upset around that. And so there does tend to be a lot of kind of psychological components that certainly obviously go into that, that was the source of my, you know, period of insomnia, and it had not come from a vacuum, I was already kind of running my life ragged, burning the candle at both ends living in the middle of Manhattan and, you know, go into bed as basically as the sun was rising for a period of time. And then just thinking, you know, over time that that was okay, or justified because I could make my own hours, and yet not respecting how much you know, that just was not working for my body or my mind and what that was doing on a psychological perspective. So I do think, yeah, there can be a real fear developed. And one of the fears that I was having was, Oh, no, now I have sleep anxiety, and which, you know, and people, you can Google that one, and you can google asleep phobias. And there’s all kinds of things that, you know, and the more extreme side of the spectrum that people can start to have that concern Oh, no, I’m going to go back to that. So then we can start to pull that apart and ultimately get grounded in the fact that the body is going to really pull for homeostasis pull for sleep. And that often, we’re the ones that kind of can get in the way of that, and by a number of things that we do, which we’ll get into, on a day to day basis.

Jacob Steyn 8:13
I have to interrupt and say I remember that time when Ben was not sleeping so well, because I was there has been those. We were study partners. And Ben is a very good student. So he I think he didn’t get a lot of sun those days. He was inside the library from sunrise to sunset.

Ben James 8:34
And he didn’t have windows the library.

Mollie McGlocklin 8:37
And you had what, what was that?

Ben James 8:40
The library didn’t have windows!

Jacob Steyn 8:43
No, it was a very dark library. And it’s an old little chapel, actually and I think we never thought about this bin, but that might have had something to do with it?

Ben James 8:54
Yeah, quite possibly. I think the kind of vitamin D element I know is, it’s been an interesting topic for you Jacob and, and back to what you were saying Mollie about the kind of there was I was definitely getting physiological responses. And I would go into the room and I would look at the bedroom and my heart rate would start to go up because I was just if I was fearful of the bedroom, because..

Jacob Steyn 9:18
I remember you telling me that?

Ben James 9:21
Yeah, it was really quite frightening and a very lonely place.

Mollie McGlocklin 9:28
Well, I still, you know, I’ve been doing this year alone, I’ve done like 65 different podcasts on sleep with with other people on other people’s podcasts. And you’re one of the first hosts that has gone into detail about your own experience. And I really appreciate that because I think it’s you’re bringing me back to my days of that and so many clients that we’ll work with that, you know, might still be in the, in the depths of that. And so I really appreciate that because it’s so in the moment, it’s so visceral, it’s so real and scary and alone. And sometimes just embarrassing and upsetting and, you know, you start future tripping around is always going to be the case, or is this my new reality? That was certainly my concern, one of the many concerns. So it’s a real big deal and then becomes debilitating for the person or can feel debilitating. You know, of how am I going to get all the things done that I need to get done when I haven’t, you know, gotten any sleep, haven’t restored myself. So it’s a very important topic. And on the plus side, I think the really huge thing to come back to and get grounded is that there is so much we can do that was a big deal for me of getting back into the driver’s seat. And so now even if there will be different times when Oh, no, I’m not, you know, I’m not tired at my normal time. Why am I not tired at my normal time at instead of the freakout that I might have, you know, had in the past that I know that there’s so many things that I can call upon, that really gives me a sense of peace in that moment. So and we can get into all of those things. But I think it’s really important.

Jacob Steyn 11:03
I’m really curious!

Mollie McGlocklin 11:05
Yes. Okay. Well, so a couple things. Starting on that topic of one of the things that I got obsessed with was this topic of, you know, chronobiology, and really the science of time. And what’s so fascinating about that, even if you’re someone that’s listening, like, Okay, well, this is extreme, I don’t, I’m not afraid of the bedroom, or all that sort of stuff. Even if you’re not like that, if you didn’t experience what I had, and you know, a little bit of what Ben had spoken to, then you might still want to ensure that you’re optimizing your health and well being productive cognitively intact, I work with a lot of athletes or you know, particularly a lot of you know, professional poker players and need to be cognitively intact at the table for, you know, hours and hours at a time. And for all of us, we want to fulfill on that. And part of that is the getting grounded that sleep is one of the most important spaces that we can begin from, to then take on nutrition, fitness, and all of these other things very important as well. So with that, the science of time concept, chronobiology, one of the key frameworks that we’re working from, is understanding that there is a kind of hierarchy of time givers, that we are exposing ourselves to environmentally throughout the day, and the top most important one being light. And the second one being temperature and within nestled within temperature, all kinds of things that will impact our bodily temperature, from meal timing when we’re eating or our food when we’re working out. Also even thought timing is that a more interesting one, or I think a pretty interesting one, that there’s even gadgets on the market to actually impact our body temperature from our head or prefrontal cortex. Because there’s certain studies around us as our anxiety grows, that our brain tissue actually heats up. So there’s, you know, tennis be a bit more responsible for our thoughts. And then, of course, our pharmacological perspective of the timing of when we’re taking certain medications or even supplements, can all impact you know, our our sleep, but if we get grounded in that framework of light being kind of paramount, and temperature being paramount, then we start to create kind of a blueprint for ourselves that has us focus less on or this is what I have people at sleep as a skill do focus less on the evenings. And more on our day is really from the minute we start, when you start our day or wake up, that we are training ourselves, one to begin with sunlight anchoring and getting outside, or at least having access to full spectrum, light first thing, and what that does from a hormonal perspective, and also a timekeeper, to keep us on track every day. And of course, all of this is with the rungs overarching perspective of consistency. So if you’re not consistent with all of those cues, then all this is kind of for not, or it’s going to take more, you know, time to adjust. So what we’re trying to do is one get ourselves as bright of a dais as we possibly can, and then is dim of evenings as we possibly can and then certainly to darkness for while we’re sleeping. And while this sounds all strategic right now, if you just go back from an a more of an anthropological perspective, this is what we would have naturally done without having to think about it, because we would have been living outside with nature much more regularly, you know, so 2016, the World Health Organization gave the stat that the average, you know, this is an America was living basically indoors around 90% of their days, and serve right and certainly since COVID, and a number of other things you can make the argument is probably even higher at this point. And so the reason that’s important is that Now we’ve kind of vacuumed ourselves into very much like a, you know, Zoo animal type environment, we’re living within a couple walls, and then we’re not being exposed to those cues. And when we would have been living outside, not only would the sun, you know that light tell us that it’s time to get up the temperature, the rise in the temperature in the environment would also provide that cue. So now, since we don’t have that many of us are not going to move outside, anytime soon, or start camping lifestyle or whatever, then for the rest of us, then that means beginning to modulate our environments to mimic those rhythms of nature. So that really, this begins to be more auto set for us. And less of something we have to like, okay, now it’s bedtime, and I’m not tired. And what do I do and all that strategy?

Ben James 15:49
Okay, interesting. It’s interesting that you, you kind of talked when, as soon as you started talking about light, I just naturally assumed, well, you know, we’re talking about making things nice and dark at nighttime. But actually, it’s, you know, it’s the exposure in the day, and presumably, from what you’re saying, we’re not just talking about exposure to light by being inside and having nice bright rooms, we’re talking about getting outside. So is that is that related to their kind of vitamin D? And the skin exposure? That’s an element of it? Or is it? Is it about the brightness itself? How does what’s the kind of keys there?

Mollie McGlocklin 16:21
Yeah, so it’s, it’s a combination of both. So one being, if we think of our time, our master clock, so it’s our super cosmetic nucleolus in our brain is directly connected to our eyes. So through the optic nerve, there is that connection, that that is one of the most important cues that the body is looking for, to judge what time is it? And what do I need to do, because the body is so concerned about preparing for anything that’s coming. So if we have these hormonal cascades that happen, you know, routinely every day where the design for if we’re, you know, healthy, functioning adults is that we wake up, and then there’s this rise in cortisol to kind of give us all that energy that we need for the day. And then it like nicely kind of comes down like this nice bell curve in the evening. And then we see melatonin rise in place of that are, you know, kind of in a dance with that, so that then we can be relaxed and go off to sleep. But so for using myself as an example, when I was upside down on that kind of scheduling, my days, I would still be, you know, having higher levels of melatonin in the mornings. So just dragging and dragging, and I have the dim lights, I didn’t want to see all the light, you know, because I’m so tired. And then I’m not really turning on and getting ready for the for the actual lights until it’s getting dark out. So then everything was flipped upside down is almost like a shift worker. And so and, you know, again, I say that as a kind of more extreme side of the example. But I think many of us are doing that naturally, without thinking about it, you know, you’re kind of you don’t get outside much, maybe to walk to the car or something. But besides that, you’re not seeing a lot of sunlight for the average person. And then when the nights come, then you flip on all these lights that now really since the 80s, switched over to more energy efficient lighting, which has a much higher spectrum of blue and green light in it. And the reason that that’s important is it’s just completely countered anything we would have really received in history. And what that does is suppress the production of melatonin in the evenings. So what happens with that is, then you’re really struggling to even get to sleep, when you do get to sleep, the quality of sleep is not to the level that we would like it to be. So that full spectrum light outside is very different, because it’s going to be full spectrum. So you’re going to have red light within there, you’re going to have the entire cascade of results that come from that. So the body is actually cued up to then release certain hormones at certain times. And then when that sun goes down, in the past, you know, the sun would have gone down and the temperature would have gone down. So at the same time, those two cues would have said, Okay, calm ourselves. And Melatonin is known as the hormone of darkness. So that presence of darkness then would have created that cue to then produce it to the levels that we need.

Jacob Steyn 19:16
Interesting because I have to think of camping the first couple of nights that I go camping, always, you know, just outside all day. And when you start relaxing at seven, eight o’clock, you’re sitting back and you think it’s it’s around 1011 o’clock, and you look at the time and you’re like, wow, I’m so tired. And it’s just because you’ve had all this outside exposure, compared to before where you were you were probably inside all time.

Mollie McGlocklin 19:42
Absolutely, yeah, there’s actually studies, really interesting studies on camping. And, you know, so taking people outside of, you know, removing end, you can certainly make the argument that there’s all kinds of co-factors, you know, maybe you’re not on your phone as much or this any other but by and large, you’re nailing it in that The biggest part is that, that that rhythm of the sun, you’re so connected to that, as well as that temperature, that company temperature change. So all of that just tells our body so that we don’t have to think about it, we don’t have to, oh, what supplements do I need to get all of this stuff, I mean, not to, you know, knock them, there are certain times and, you know, there’s elements for that, and it can make a difference on the moving the needle. But the big element here is getting ourselves reconnected to those rhythms of nature.

Jacob Steyn 20:31
Something that I’m really gonna pay more, I’m gonna do a lot more, actually, especially in the morning getting lighter, because I don’t think I’m doing that.

Mollie McGlocklin 20:39
Oh, good. It makes me so happy. So a couple things with that, too, is, you know, really advocating for pretty much you know, burning your sunglasses. I used to be a big fan of sunglasses, just from, you know, the coolness factor, and got it knock em, because so a couple of things. One, that sounds so like, basic, why does that matter. But, you know, if we’re going outside, and we have baseball hats, you know, sunglasses on all, you know, sunscreen, all of these, it’s actually impeding our ability to get that vitamin D. And of course, I know when people hear that, and those a lot of concerns around that. So you want to be smart and intelligent with it. But particularly morning light, can be very rich in infrared light, and people will spend a lot of money like I grew up had psoriasis, and that I used to get, the doctors would have me do infrared light to treat that. And yet you can go outside and for free. It’s right, you know, readily available at both the bookends of our sunrise and sunset is where that pinkish hue is available, and that is more present in that infrared light. So you know, getting at least any even if you go on to kind of advice around being mindful for vitamin D production. So much of that is important to achieve through sunlight specifically, you know, I know people will supplement. But there is some really important stuff there. And why does that relate to sleep? Well, it’s important for a really creating that cocktail of response. So vitamin D that is important around generating for serotonin. And then serotonin is important for degeneration process of melatonin, so they’re all connected. And if we are deficient in that, like I’ll have that with different clients, they’ll do some bloodwork and we’ll see low vitamin D, low magnesium, you know, the series of things that then we can really address.

Ben James 22:34
And in terms of the getting outside and the natural, a lot of people and particularly now I guess looking at it’s getting winter over in the UK, so darker mornings, people that are going to get up early commute, and then they’re not necessarily there maybe getting into the office. And it’s still dark, some of them, and they kind of stand there. Are there other kind of sleep aids tech and things that you would recommend or is it firstly about just make sure that you get out and you get at least this amount of exposure to natural light and air and other things throughout the day? What’s the what would be your advice in terms of a habitual kind of approach for people that are struggling? If you are with a with a client, maybe in terms of first steps, I guess?

Mollie McGlocklin 23:18
Yeah, great points. So one, it certainly does matter where you are, geographically, I have different clients that are in say, like Sweden or Alaska or different spots where there’s going to be really long stretches of time, it’s total darkness, long stretches, times, there’s total light, and that can be real disruptive to sleep. So then if you’re in those extreme pockets, then really getting connected to creating that environment that’s going to work for our poll or push and pull of having light exposure and darkness divided throughout the day. So you want to have a real strategy about that. But for the rest of us that maybe are just dealing with the, you know, yearly changes. One, yes, you want to actually really prioritize the amount of time that you’re getting outside for getting light, even if you are, you know, working within, you know, an office building for those of us that are still doing that, you know, getting outside and you know, periodically throughout the day is super, super important for the body. But also, I do know that there are times when people are you know, they’re sick, they, you know, can’t get outside, there can be the that can warrant doing some of the light boxes. But I’d really really, you know, urge people to do whatever it takes to be able to get outside and get that natural light because nothing can really compare to it. So the amount of luck that’s available with that. Some kind of nerdy things you can do. But I think it really interesting is there’s different apps that you can download that will show you the Lux in your environment. So the Lux output. So if you go outside and hold your phone and on a sunny day, you can just dramatically see the difference of the amount of Lux Available in that environment versus you go inside or go to like a Starbucks or something, and it’s only maybe 100 Lux, or whatever it might be in your indoor environment. So it’s just drastically different. And what we looking for we’re looking to do is really have a very high ratio between the amount of light that we’re exposed to during the day and the dimming of that light in the hours leading up to our, to bedtime. So we want to be really aware of that. And then the other thing is that even the windows that were windows can help make a big difference, but they still are blocking some of that full spectrum light that is really helpful for health. So try not too much to rely on that. Although there are cool studies where even in hospitals, like patients are able to get themselves there, their healing time is arguably improved if they’re in rooms that have windows so that they’re more connected to that rhythm.

Jacob Steyn 25:59
Do you have a typical protocol for cell phones in the evening?

Mollie McGlocklin 26:07
Oh, yeah, good call. So since you know, we’re, we’ve spoken so much about that getting lots of max amount of light in the in the daytime, then in the evening, we want to start to have as much of kind of a digital sunset as possible. So ideal on the spectrum would be the sunsets and we kind of put away all of our tech, while I know that that’s not realistic or not of interest for a lot of people right now. So if we’re looking to kind of have our cake and eat it too, then there’s different things that we can do. So like, you know, on the iPhone, you can set up red light filters that will turn your phone red, like for anyone watching the video. But if if you’re just listening, on the iPhone, you can set you know color filters to make it a red light. On androids, you can use an app called Twilight. So there’s different things you can do to change the color. So you’ll be surprised by even how much that kind of lowers the kind of excited Tory experience that are the that addictive dopamine hit from all that blue light that we’re normally staring into. also wearing blue blockers when we’re, you know, using our phone or the TV or what have you can be, it’s very important if we’re going to be still exposed to that light. But and then also, yes, really ensuring that one we’re being mindful of what we call thought timing. And so the thought timing that will result will be related to the type of content that we’re consuming on our phone. So you know, really starting to notice, okay, if I get stressed out on whatever it is Facebook or something, news, certainly, and other things like that, that will want to start to have real wind down times, but particularly about being anywhere from two to one hours before bed, that we’re starting to really just like limit that. And I will say that there is a range because depending on our levels of stress in our life, you know, counter intuitively, if we’re really stressed out, we want to have less of that time on that device. Because it’s just more challenging for us to downshift.

Ben James 28:12
And just and then what about light bulbs and things? Do you get to a certain time of night where you’re trying to throw on the more relaxing candles or any of that good stuff for you where you said about the glasses, maybe for limiting the blue light? Is that a strategy you employ yourself? what’s what’s the deal with the kind of natural light because in the world that we’re in now it’s just push the button on comes a light. And well. We’re kind of Wired?

Mollie McGlocklin 28:40
Yes, totally. Oh my goodness. So one, I had this great anthropologist on the sleep as a skill podcast and he was speaking to this challenge that he gives all of his different he’s also professor and give these challenges to students to do the candlelight challenge. And so once the sunsets you only use candles for like a couple of weeks, and just about everyone would often fall off on this challenge. But for the ones that would actually stick with it. It’s amazing. I get tired so much quicker. It’s like so simple. And I think something about the simplicity of this. Really, one can speak to people of like, okay, that does make sense but to it’s almost so simple that we have to like really strategize about it. Okay, how would this work? Well, I got to get a bunch of candles like you know, and but it really can be I think it’s a really fun experiment but particularly if you have some trackers so I know I’m like knocking all of this modern day tech and saying that this is part of the problem of our you know, the light environment and all this is part of our sleep but at the same time, I love my tech too. And I think that can be actually the way out of some of this. So I do really recommend that people get a solid sleep tracker so that they can start to gamify this and you know, I get a lot of Really, you know, bio hackery types that are very much into, okay, so I got, you know, X number of hours of sleep and I want to really move those up, it just it can really help make it more of a fun process. So as it relates to that candlelight, I would suggest that candlelight is one of the ideal, you know, kind of places to begin. But if you’re not still interested in that, then you can also do incandescent lights. So those will have almost like those Edison bulbs, like romantic restaurants will have a very dim sort of deal, something like that. And then if you’re not interested in that, you can also do red lights to kind of make it very red light district. Or you can also do if you are super kind of just lazy about this and not wanting to have to like switch on lots of lights, I do have some clients that are very into like the Philip Hughes, and then they’ll auto have circadian lighting, and then it will just turn down in the evenings at particular times, I will just say for those of us that are mindful of our EMF exposure that might be putting more EMF into your environment. So you want to you know, think about that, too. But But ideally, like the absolute least amount of light that you can possibly do, you’ll be shocked at the difference it can make about how much more automatically we get tired in the evening.

Ben James 31:25
And in terms of the the apps, is there a Is there a good one you recommend? Or the kind of hundreds just get out there and do a Google search?

Mollie McGlocklin 31:34
Oh, for the apps for like the Lux.

Ben James 31:36
Yeah. And and and kind of monitoring your your sleep?

Mollie McGlocklin 31:40
Oh, sure. Okay. Yeah. So um, yeah, for the Lux one, there’s a couple different one, there’s like ‘My Lux’ and a couple others that you can, I think you only really need those for like, say, maybe a week or so to kind of almost just get yourself, oh, wow, there is a big difference, you start to just get that engrained. But then, as far as the trackers, what I suggest I have virtually all my clients right now in 2020, wearing Oura Rings, spelled O U R A. And those are just helpful from a, they’re just seem to be the most applicable for most people, they’re easy to use, great kind of visual design, you could see the trends. But also from a health perspective, it’s interesting for us to be able to pull from body temperature changes, respiratory rate changes I’ve had some clients be able to just from because they were so outside of the bell curve on those numbers that are the respiratory rate numbers that they it was enough for them to go get a sleep study. And then they found that they did have mild to severe different people have sleep apnea. And then you’re also getting your heart rate and seeing the arc of that as well as your HRV, which is particularly interesting, especially for us, kind of stressed people or anxious people, but really, for anyone to looking to improve their health. That’s a great metric to monitor since it’s really a readout of our autonomic nervous system. So that’s one there’s also you know, bio strap there’s, whoop, there’s dream. You know, Apple Watch has some elements of sleep, but there’s a lot so I think that can be a great place to start. Because then when you’re testing all this, it makes it more fun, because then you can really see the results and the changes.

Ben James 33:24
Yeah, I like I like that actually, I think people could could definitely see the benefits in in almost competing with themselves a little bit or at least people like to know these things, don’t they? So to be able to track it and to be able to monitor and see the improvements and things is a lot you say gamify is actually a really it’s an interesting way to look at it. So that’s..

Jacob Steyn 33:45
Might be a good one for you, Ben.

Mollie McGlocklin 33:47
Yeah!

Ben James 33:49
Yeah, I’m I’m getting these tips. already logged in my mind ready. We’ll definitely share some of the links, we’ll put some of the links to these things in there in the show notes. So, so light is important. What So you mentioned temperature, temperature, are we cooler at nighttime, obviously, or not? Obviously, maybe cooler. Definitely things to help me. You know if I’m too warm, then not happening.

Mollie McGlocklin 34:15
Same. Yes, yes. So we definitely want to our temperature we want to have again, that really clear divide. So just like we said really bright days and dim nights, we want to have, you know, warmer body temperature throughout the day. So active, moving, working out also dealing with those challenging things that might be keeping us up at night and kind of warming up our body when we’re stressed. We want to be dealing with all those during the day making that tough phone call, you know, whatever doing your taxes and you know, all the things that might stress us out, right? So we want to do all that during the day but then the evening really cultivate that kind of nice downturn of our body temperature, what is important, I think one of the things that a lot of what really helps with these issues trackers, especially ones that will track body temperature is that then we’ll see how much even just our behaviors will impact our body temperature, and then our resulting sleep. So examples of that just the most basic, basic examples is that the clients that I have that then say they get, they start using the aura ring. And then they’ll see Oh, my God, when I eat late, you’re not like that much, or nothing like it’s not like a bad, you know, ice cream and whatever chips or something, it’s, you know, just like a, they eat something in the evening, how that will really bring up their body temperature while they’re sleeping, and how that results in often more fragmented sleep, or just, they’re more dragging in the morning, also, their heart rate goes up to really deal with that, really, you know, digestion process is not a low energy activity. And so much of the blood flow that has to go to the stomach to deal with that all of that is detracting from something that’s been more recent, to be on the under our understanding, notice glymphatic drainage, which is the drainage process in our brain while we’re sleeping, during deep sleep. And one, it really kind of requires a lot of attention, because it’s draining out really the waste products of the brain throughout the day. And the reason that that’s gotten a lot of press now is that there’s certain studies that correlate that there could be a concern, if you’re not having adequate lymphatic drainage during the nights, then it can relate to Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, dementia later on in life, because you’re kind of building up these hardened plaques. And so one of the things that detracts from the ability to do that is having to digest and do too much for the body when it’s supposed to be restoring. So that’s even just some basic elements, of course, the other big one that I think we probably all know, but it really hits us over the head when we’re tracking is how much alcohol and caffeine will certainly change our body temperature as well as our sleep results. So those are some of the things as well, as you know, exercise timing, you know, right, and the rise in your heart rate that that can bring in. Also some of my big time biohackers are trying to push the envelope with temperature. So they might be doing, you know, the, we were joking about Wim Hof earlier, you know, in a good way, like really positive elements that come about from that, but it’s cold therapy and heat therapy. But sometimes if we maybe do sauna like right before bed, you know, the body, the heart rate is really up pretty high. And so sometimes we want to strategize depending on our cardiovascular health, around the timing for some of those things. So a lot of it just really takes, like, awareness tracking, and then experimentation.

Ben James 37:47
Yeah, no, that’s, that’s interesting. And on the food side of things, did you kind of have a recommendation in terms of don’t eat X amount of time before bed? And And how about fasting because, you know, intermittent fasting is becoming a big topic from not just from kind of healthy gut point of view and weight control, etc. But is that is that influential in this in this kind of sleep approach?

Mollie McGlocklin 38:12
Oh, yeah, definitely. Um, so it depends on how outside of the bell curve you want to be. I know, I’m advocating for a lot of like, weird things to do, you know, candles, and, you know, blue blockers, and now I’m having you eat super early. So what I, what I would say there’s some interesting studies pointing to how we could look at what’s known as early time restricted feeding. And so you’re restricting. It’s almost like the flip flop of what a lot of us have done with intermittent fasting, you’re, you know, skipping breakfast, and then you’re back loading, you know, most of your meal for lunch and dinner. But this is kind of the the flip of that. So you’re actually almost skipping dinner, you could say. And so there’s a lot of variants on the timing for that. So some of these studies have people stopping around 2pm. And I have I stopped really early. And I’m not saying that anyone has to do this, but I stopped around like, three, four, something like that. No one has to take that as gospel or anything, but what we can start bringing in is testing out what happens when we stop eating around four hours before bed. And often we see some really great results for people with their heart rate going down. really able to improve that quality of sleep, their body temperature going down, and then certainly on the longer on on the side of fasting, then we have some really interesting stuff again, that’s why you want to have ideally some metrics for yourself. Because if you do say like a 36 hour fast a 48 hour fast. For many people, especially for men, they tend to have some really great benefits with heart rate lowering during that time. HRV really improving, but you want to test it because it does it is variable to each person and bio individual For women, we just have to be a little bit more mindful, particularly if we’re of, you know, menstruating age. So there’s different parts of our cycle that it’s more challenging for us to do that, particularly the second half, when our HRV tends to take.

Ben James 40:14
Yeah, that was interesting, since just now you mentioned about recommending, recommending some maybe weird or extreme things for people. It’s, yeah, it’s, it’s interesting how our habits have kind of evolved to, to be so unhealthy because we talk a lot of Jacob and I, when we’re talking back health and exercises, we’ve had people before that will say, I’ve just got no time for exercises, or I will say, well get a half an hour earlier, take ownership of your your problem. And really the majority of people that you see if they’re not biohackers, they’re people that have got a problem, there’s or do you see many people now that are kind of just saying, do you know what, I just want your advice, because I want to take a proactive preventative approach, because that’s kind of the philosophy we’re trying to, I guess, educate and encourage that people prevent issues rather than just have to deal with a problem?

Mollie McGlocklin 41:06
Yes, absolutely. And for that element of like, Okay, this is too much, I can’t do that, I don’t have time for that as to out of the bell curve. For to complete the meal timing idea, one kind of softer, one intends to make more sense for people or can land in a livable fashion is known as circadian rhythm, intermittent fasting. And all that is, is just really, you’re looking to primarily eat most of the bulk of your food within the hours of sunrise and sunset. And of course, back to that harkening back to that great example, around camping. That’s another thing that most of us would largely Do you know, the sunsets and beyond maybe like a bonfire and eat a little bit later, that you’re often tethered to when the sun sets, you’re not doing too too much. And from an anthro ancestral perspective than many of us, it would have been, you know, there’s no refrigeration, you’re not going for a midnight snack, you’re not going to go shoot an elk or something, and well, it’s dark out, it’s just very unlikely that you would be snacking and eating late into the, into the night. So we’re just trying to bring about a bit more of that and still be able to whatever watch, you know, Netflix or something and still have, you know, all have it all. So if you can just even do something like that app that’s helpful for that even just train is called zero. And they do some great work with helping to guide you also with that gamification element, so it can geotag you where you are and see when your sunrise and sunset is and how often you’re eating outside of that window. And it’s not like it’s making it bad or wrong when you’re doing that. But just starting to notice, oh, wow, I’ve had always on the weekends, I start to really go later and interesting, interesting that I’m dragging by the time I get to Monday. So there’s a real correlation there.

Jacob Steyn 42:58
That feedbacks really good. I, I just, I’m just wondering, what do you get a lot of people who are waking up tired, so they’re sleeping, but they’re not necessarily getting into their deep sleep? And do you have any tips there?

Mollie McGlocklin 43:14
Yeah. So there might be people that, you know, like Ben and I were speaking about the anxiety element of things, I can’t get to sleep I, you know, just like that heightened, you know, even just the seeing of the bed is stressing us out. There’s other people that are like, Oh, that’s not me, like, I have no problem falling asleep. But then I’m waking up throughout the night, and I can’t get back to sleep, or I just I maybe I feel like I’m out. But then I still to your point, I wake up and I’m just like a zombie. So one, there are certain things you can do. There’s it’s known as the Dutch test where you can check your hormones throughout the day. And see if you’re having, you know, kind of cortisol, how your cortisol, melatonin hormone hormones are performing, and see if maybe there might be a little bit out of whack. So certainly, when I was at the peak of my insomnia, my cortisol was really reaching its peak state like right when I was supposed to be, you know, going to bed to bed. And that’s really challenging for the body to, to sleep when it’s in that state. So, so getting that awareness can certainly help, but also getting at the source of Are you someone that then deals with those wake ups, and that’s part of the problem with the tiredness. So there’s a lot of individual questions. So one thing that we often tend to assume if there are a lot of those wakeups, and that’s part of the reason for the being tired, is that there might be some glucose imbalance. And again, there’s a lot of reasons I’m just talking about some of the common ones is so then we can, again to bring in some gamification. I’ll have a lot of clients wearing continuous glucose monitors, and then we can see Oh, wow, you’re having a total you know, really a drop significant drop in glucose in the evening while you’re sleeping and then the body kind of you know, creates adrenalin to deal with that, because you know, needs that energy. And so that will cause a wake up and not only a wake up but you’re like awake. And so we can stabilize that glucose by changing things during the day. Then there’s also a lot of other things that people might innocently do and not know is making a difference. So I have a lot of clients that really rely on you know, THC, or certain supplements, and some of those might be impacting the quality of their sleep. So like the example of THC, they might have that before bed, and oh my god, it makes me fall asleep, and I’m out all night, but then I still wake up tired. And so that can point to you know, we’re looking at how that can impact the architecture, sleep architecture. And then if you’re also just waking up really tired, you know, some of the things that go back to the simple elements of temperature might be getting too hot throughout the night. So the quality of that sleep is not great. So you might have people wearing using like a chilli pad or bed jet. And that can help really improve a lot of the sleep quality for a lot of people. So it does take a lot of unpacking to see what’s going on. Or if you’re someone that’s, you know, exposed to all this light before bed, and then your melatonin production is not so high, then of course, the quality of your sleep that you’re getting during the night is going to be kind of lacking to where it could be.

Jacob Steyn 46:26
Great. Great. I just want to know, do you have a sweet spot for vitamin D?

Mollie McGlocklin 46:31
Oh, yeah, good question. So I really like to err on the side, I know, there’s there’s a lot of people that speak to sleep optimization, and they’ll have a litany of different supplements, and, you know, protocols around that, which I think can be great. And I know that for myself, when I was really anxious and you know, not sleeping, I was so desperately looking for like the pill that would make the difference. And you know, and in this topic of vitamin D really is super important. Many of us are lacking in that. But I do like to have people begin with the second exposure. And often that can make a dramatic, dramatic difference. And then bio individually, then we can kind of tweak things. But often that is just really new for people, because many of us are not spending that much time outside with, you know, without some sort of, you know, protectants and all these things that last, yeah, then cut into that vitamin D production.

Ben James 47:31
Yeah, that’s the other that you mentioned, Molly about carbohydrates, and not carbohydrates, glucose, specifically, and if glucose is low, then adrenalin is kind of triggered. And that might be a problem with with sleep. I want to dig a little bit into the nutrition side of that a little bit because we know where evidence is telling us that the brain obviously needs glucose, but actually can also burn as a fuel ketones. Is there kind of the keto diet is becoming kind of quite popular? Is that something that could be a consideration because if if we’re more fat adapted, then we’re not going to have the problem so much with a drop in glucose? If we can burn fats as a fuel, maybe, and therefore that adrenalin is, is not triggered? If that makes sense. Is that? Is that kind of a topic of conversation around the nutritional aspect of of sleep?

Mollie McGlocklin 48:30
Oh, yes, definitely. And it is interesting, too, because in that transition of becoming kind of a more, you know, fat burner, and that kind of adaption to that with going into ketosis more regularly, then there will be often I will get people that are just beginning on the beginning trails of becoming keto. And they will be having sleep disturbances, because all of this is very new to them, and to the body. And it’s kind of, you know, can freak out in the beginning anyway. And so that’s another reason why I think it can be so insightful to measure because we can see what’s going on for people individually. But one, we start to just see that often people particularly if you’re doing kind of standard Western diets are just on this surfing these crazy waves throughout the day of peaks and crashes of glucose. Where is your point around Yeah, with, say keto, or certain things that are really looking to keep us more stable, if we’re doing it in the way that it’s kind of designed. It can really help make a difference with that. One, less of the throes of all that anxiety that comes about from the highs and the lows that we often are experiencing. So I look back to my life before all this and I know that I was just up and down and all around all throughout the day and how stressed that stressful that was for the body and mind And, and so you know how we can stabilize that throughout the day is going to be really insightful. But I think a lot of people they listen to is like, Oh, I’m healthy, I just have a, I have a smoothie, and I have this and that, but then if for many of us, if we start putting on a continuous glucose monitor that smoothies often get a crazy spike us, you know, that little, you know, banana we have is going to go through the roof and whatever throughout the day. Even if you’re like, I’m not having a lot of sugar laden stuff, there’s so much that we eat that turns to sugar. And that can really bring about the instability of interesting book of why we get sick is really helpful. When you if you are, you know, beginning to look at this glucose conversation, and, and are starting to use continuous glucose monitors to kind of make sense of all this. And it is an exciting kind of new frontier and a lot of ways because in the past, so many people that were these were, you know, diabetic or pre diabetic, and now we’re having people that are really looking for optimal health wearing them. So now we’re getting a whole new set of numbers that we want to try to aim for.

Ben James 51:05
Yeah, no, it’s it’s, it’s really interesting that that kind of nutritional aspect of not just not just sleep, but health in general, I think it’s, well, hopefully, you know, where we’re seeing, we’re seeing advances. And one day, we’ll see that as more of a prescriptive approach to to health problems, not just with sleep, but with so many other things. Because it it just seems so obvious to to a few. But but we’re missing the point, I think a lot of people and back to what you said, a lot of people kind of make the assumption that they’re eating healthfully, but actually, they’re not, or not actually doing them the favor that they they assume it, it will.

Mollie McGlocklin 51:42
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it’s not to knock all of us this can be like a full time job to if you’re eating anything that’s not just like from the ground or from you know, just a natural thing, then what’s likely is often you can find some things that are going to spike you. And so can be really just challenging and frustrating for people. It’s like, Why do I have to do all this detective work? You know, what a crazy result?

Ben James 52:08
Because you know, that there’s so many elements to this. I mean, one thing I wanted to ask, and just before maybe we give some, some simple strategies as a starting point is what about their kind of this distress element and work? Because that’s something that I’m guessing for a lot of people is difficult to control? And, And is that something that you’re even seeing as a common problem? And, you know, what are the common findings that you’re seeing? Obviously, the light the cold is, temperature is is one thing is that? Is that a consistent thing? Or is stress a big component for many people? And what’s the what’s the kind of approach maybe for that?

Mollie McGlocklin 52:50
Oh, yeah, definitely, we advocate something called the sleep tripod. So you know, in any tripod having kind of the functionality being contactable three legs, and for the three legs for sleep, we’re looking for workability in our psychology, physiology and environment, and they’re oftentimes, so in the onboarding process for new clients, when we have them come through sleep as a skill, we have to do all these assessments in three of those areas. And in the psychology element of things, I mean, it can often be very clear, people are going through divorce, there’s been a death in the family, they just lost their job, you know, this on the other can be very obvious, but then often what seems to be particularly common to is just, you know, chronic stress that’s just been around for so long, it’s like their new normal. So one thing for the psychological perspective is we do really advocate for taking action in those areas that are keeping us awake. So we kind of have a inventory of, you know, 17 different areas of life and kind of a self assessment and we start to see like, which ones are really out of whack more than others, and if those are part of those, the element of the record player of thoughts that are keeping us awake at night, then starting to really prioritize and setting aside time to handle those as much as within our capabilities during the day. But also, I think, from more of the gamification perspective, HRV heart rate variability is so helpful for this area, since we can often see when this very basic because it’s really complicated and metric, but if you’re super kind of making it too simplified, largely when it’s lower on on the scale, then that’s where more stressed and or sick or rundown or just you know, really need some restoration. And then if it’s higher for us in our baseline, then that can often speak to kind of sufficient recovery you know, peace of mind elements of you know, to the basically representing that the nervous system isn’t overly taxed. So when it can be awesome because it can help As day to day start to notice, okay, I’m starting to trend down. Alright, I gotta, you know, pull back a little bit, take some, you know, time, whatever that’s going to look versus waiting and go months and months. And then suddenly you’re like, I am stressed beyond stressed or depressed or anxious or whatever.

Ben James 55:18
Sure. Okay. Wow. Fascinating. It’s, it’s, it’s a fascinating subject and like you say, so many facets of it. And I guess, for people listening, there’s probably a little bit of stress in trying to if you’re, if you’re suffering from sleep issues, a little bit of stress and trying to understand where my problem starts, do you kind of advocate for just trying one or two things at a time rather than trying to change a whole host of things? Which A can be stressful and pressured in itself? But also, you don’t really know what’s what’s making the difference?

Mollie McGlocklin 55:52
Yeah, oh, my goodness. So simplify all of that. Because there is there are so many habits and behaviors that we can take on to make a difference in our sleep. But if if we get nothing out of this whole conversation, I hope that it’s one that we want to have ample, like, during our days. So first thing, so really switching our focus, at least, this was way less activating for me, because in the past, you know, when I couldn’t sleep, it was all about the nights and how to make the nights perfect. And so switching that focus to my days, and really living a rich, you know, kind of fruitful day, then that kind of took the pressure off of the nights. So Well, yeah, which was really, really helpful. Because it’s almost kind of, you can almost get performance anxiety, you could have a say, around the Knights, right? Like, it can be a lot. So restoring that confidence for people is huge. And part of that can begin with one, we want to get as much bright and natural light throughout the day as humanly possible and starting first thing. So ideally, you know, even if you wake up and throw back the curtains, get as much light as is available, and then throughout the day getting exposed to that. And then also just mimicking that temperature. So if you want the blueprint of the kind of what would make sense from a natural perspective, just trying to think back to like hunter gatherer days, and how we can overlay that within our, you know, 21st century lifestyles. So with that, you want to just make sure that you’re building, you’re bringing up your temperature throughout the day, even if you turn up the ambient temperature in your space during the daytime. But then once the sun sets, really lowering that temperature, both ambient style, but also just like all the things we’re doing the intensity by which we’re, you know, living our days, calming and bringing all that down, as well as the light factor. So just begin with the temperature and light element. But I also have not snooze on that topic of the meal timing, it’s really surprising how much that can impact is how we feel in the mornings. So if we can start just testing, moving that timing back. So even if you normally stop eating whatever, two hours before bed, see what happens with three hours, and then maybe, you know, sprinkle in some of the four hours and see what happens, particularly if you’re tracking. But I would have people get a good tracker, just because the way our lives are lived now is so exposed to so much that’s outside of the natural bell curve of how we used to live. So I think that that could help us get responsible for that get more consistent throughout our days.

Ben James 58:32
Yeah, I think that’s a great point. And I think, you know, that might, for some people restore a little bit of confidence because it might be on occasion, you actually sleep better than you think you do. But you’re in this pattern of thinking that it’s it’s terrible. And back to my story. I thought every night was terrible. And actually, at the end of the studies when all the exams were fine. I went I went away for a break because I I just hijacked my mum and dad’s a break to Scotland, lovely part of the world. very peaceful, little log cabin and a place where I’ve spent many fun childhood holiday and slept incredibly well. And I turn up there and I’m terrible.

Mollie McGlocklin 59:16
Oh. Yeah, I’ve been there!

Ben James 59:18
But then actually, one morning, my mother said, Oh, how do you sleep? How did you sleep? And I said mine was terrible. It was it was rubbish. And she said, Well, I walked past your room to go to the toilet, and you are snoring. And that was kind of Oh, hang on a minute. So I did sleep. So maybe getting that feedback for some people that might be surprising that actually you’re doing better than you think. Just that alone might make you realize that. Yeah, I’m doing better than I thought and therefore, it helps set you on a on a better path. Should we say maybe?

Mollie McGlocklin 59:53
Oh, yeah, that’s a real thing. paradoxical. Insomnia is really interesting too, because you’ll have people go into sleep labs. And they, they’ll just they lay there all night. And then they, you know, get up and speak to the, you know, kind of Administrator of the test and see, see Oh, it’s awful. I didn’t sleep one wink. And then they’ll show them the stats of like, No, you’ve slept here, here and here. And it can be really helpful because I’m clear that that was an element that was at play for me. I was, it felt as very real that No, I wasn’t sleeping the entire the entire night, not a wink. But it was really impossible for me to be able to then still, you know, actually move around, do things. So I was getting some micro, you know, sleep. And so that does help restore your confidence that that is happening. And then you can improve it over time, for sure.

Ben James 1:00:45
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, some amazing advice there and some great, simple steps to make at least a start to improve in your sleep for those people listening for those people suffering, or not even suffering, but just think, yeah, you know, what I could I could develop or implement some healthier habits and improve my sleep. Because I think clearly, as with nutrition, and other things, taken a long term, preventative kind of approach to these things is clearly important, particularly when you mentioned the research around maybe cognitive degeneration, outsiders and things that, you know, sleep could be, could be influential. And so, don’t just be complacent and think that you’re, you’re sleeping well, if you’ve got some habits there that that are a focus that could be improved, whether it’s playing on your phone, or watching too much TV, etc, etc, then take some of this advice and, and try it out. And if you are suffering, and those strategies don’t work for you, then hey, give Mollie a shout, because she’ll be able to help!

Unknown Speaker 1:01:52
Well and I will also put in if you are suffering and those things are not you know, putting, you know, working for you, then there’s a bunch of different ways to begin with checking out sleep as a skilled calm, we also have free downloadable PDFs, called the optimized bedroom that it you know, strategic tips, 18 surgeries or tips around both low and high tech elements that you can do to shift your space. And so you can do that for free. You can also that also signs you up for our weekly newsletter. So every Monday send out the couldn’t tell him pretty obsessive personality. So it’s called Molly’s Monday obsessions. And so every Monday, you know, kind of what I’m obsessing about in the world of sleep and health and wellness. So lots of sleep resources in that. And then we also are launching a online training course we’ve been running cohorts for it all year. And then previous to that, you know, doing small groups and what have you. But this will be exciting because it will offer more kind of lower price point options for people versus, you know, the small groups or one on ones. So that’s going to be exciting as well.

Ben James 1:03:02
And in this and this world of COVID still being in October 2020 here and still experiencing these lockdowns, these virtual and and online courses are going to be ever more important. And geographically as well then the access is going to be there. So amazing insight, my we really appreciate your time, some some great content there. And we’ll definitely share those links to your social kind of media links and posts so people can find you there and find you on the website so they can take advantage of your knowledge and get a better night’s sleep because hey, it’s important. And if you’ve suffered it like I have, it’s not a nice place to be. So I’ll be taking some of those tips and and implementing them. So hey, Molly, thanks again for your time. We really appreciate you coming on.

Mollie McGlocklin 1:03:55
Awesome, thank you guys. Really this is awesome to speak with other people that are clearly connected to their health and well being and have been through. You know, the wringer with some of it too and you know, coming out and being advocates on the other side to prove it. So really important.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai